Mr. Assistant Deputy Chairperson (Gerry McAlpine): Order, please. Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This section of Committee of Supply will be considering the Estimates of the Department of Northern and Native Affairs. Does the honourable Minister of Northern and Native Affairs have an opening statement?
Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Northern and Native Affairs): Yes, Mr. Chair. Given the fact that the temperature in this room is very hot, and I know that Estimates' time is somewhat in short supply, by department, if my colleagues are willing to waive their statements, I would be willing to waive mine, and we could get into questions and issues. It might be a more civilized way to approach it on such a hot day.
Mr. Oscar Lathlin (The Pas): I am easy, except that I would miss your, as per usual, eloquent, profound opening remarks. So, if you want to go ahead, go ahead. Whatever.
Mr. Assistant Deputy Chairperson: Is it agreed we will not have any opening remarks from the honourable minister and the official critic of the official opposition? [agreed]
Mr. Praznik: Yes, Mr. Chair. I do not know how much time has been allocated for this--five hours?--but we have usually had a tradition that if we wanted to deal on specifics, we can go through line by line, or we can deal with a host of issues within that time. I am very flexible on that to accommodate the process.
Mr. Assistant Deputy Chairperson: What is the will of the committee? To proceed line by line?
Mr. Lathlin: The last time we were here, I believe that my preference would be to not necessarily go line by line throughout, but talk about the department in general terms, policy, and afterwards go through it line by line. I believe that is how we did it last time.
Mr. Assistant Deputy Chairperson: For the benefit of the committee, would it be in order for the Chair to suggest that we consider a broad discussion on each section of the Estimates book?
An Honourable Member: Maybe we could just do it in big sections, and then we can vote on them all.
Mr. Assistant Deputy Chairperson: Is that the will of the committee to deal with this section by section and open discussion? [Agreed]
Mr. Praznik: If I could then call up my staff, we can get into our discussion. I would like to introduce the new Deputy Minister of Northern and Native Affairs, Mr. Michael Fine. This is Michael's 14th or 15th week in the province. He was recruited from the federal public service where his expertise was in international marketing. In fact, he was a chief negotiator for Canada in a host of issues in the textile portion of their responsibilities. He was recruited to Manitoba as Deputy Minister of Energy and Mines because of our thrust in attracting mining exploration and development. When the cabinet shuffle occurred following the election, it was the Premier's decision--in which I am obviously in concurrence and I had some discussions with him--that the appropriateness of having one deputy minister for the two portfolios for which I was responsible--so Michael assumed the Deputy Minister of Northern and Native Affairs, as well, following that shuffle.
I want to at this time just acknowledge the excellent work of Mr. Tom Farrell as the previous deputy minister. If you remember, Mr. Farrell was initially recruited as the Deputy Minister of Labour, and when I was appointed Minister of Northern Affairs in addition to Labour, he was also given that responsibility, again because of the convenience of having one deputy. So I want to welcome Mr. Fine to this table in his first Estimates debate.
We also have with us Mr. Jeff Polakoff who is the director of the Development and Coordination branch of the department. Jeff is no stranger to this table or to many here--and Mr. Rene Gagnon who is the director of Administration and Finance for the department.
Regrettably Mr. Oliver Boulette who is our assistant deputy minister with responsibility for Local Government Development is absent today. I do not think he will be joining us either, for a very good reason, as members opposite know, particularly the member for The Pas (Mr. Lathlin). The forest fire situation in northern Manitoba has necessitated that he remain in Thompson as the senior provincial public servant.
As you are aware, last night we began the evacuation of South Indian Lake, and I have just been informed that Gods Narrows is also in the process of being evacuated today. So we have a pretty serious situation, and I am sure my critics will appreciate the need for the ADM of Northern Affairs who is based out of Thompson to be in Thompson. I know I spoke to him late last night at the central command post, and he was quite busy in the process of working with the city to make arrangements to receive the people from South Indian Lake. We apologize for him not being here, but I think one understands the reasons behind it.
Mr. Assistant Deputy Chairperson: Under Manitoba practice, debate of the Minister's Salary is traditionally the last item considered for the Estimates of the department. Accordingly, we shall defer consideration of this item and now proceed with the consideration of the next line.
We will now proceed to line 1. Northern Affairs Executive (b) Executive Support (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits on page 124 of the main Estimates book.
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Mr. Praznik: As we struggle to kind of get a handle on the branches, just the breakdown by the Estimates book as well as we have the Administration and Finance section which is the first following Minister's Salary. That is followed by Local Government Services which are 56 Northern Affairs communities. We also have the agreement's management, which is Northern Flood, treaty land entitlement and those particular issues, Economic Development side and the Native Affairs Secretariat. So if we could perhaps deal with them in those batches of issues, it would give some structure at least to the issues. Unless members have questions in the Admin and Finance area, I would suggest we proceed to Local Government and get into those areas.
Mr. Assistant Deputy Chairperson: Is it the will of the committee to pass the line 19.1(b) Executive Support (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits, and then go into the other areas referenced by the minister? [agreed]
Item 1. Northern Affairs Executive (b) Executive Support (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $275,300--pass; (b) Other Expenditures $121,700--pass.
2. Northern Affairs Operations (a) Financial and Administrative Services (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $382,900.
Mr. Lathlin: Which main part are we on here now?
Mr. Assistant Deputy Chairperson: Item 2. Northern Affairs Operations (a) Financial and Administrative Services (b) Program and Operational Support (c) Thompson Region (d) The Pas Region (e) Dauphin Region (f) Selkirk Region (g) Technical Services (h) Northern Affairs Fund (j) Inter-Regional Services (k) Northern Co-ordination Services (m) Northern Flood Agreement.
Mr. Lathlin: I usually have a problem getting started on these.
Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River): While my colleague for The Pas looks at his notes, I would like to just take a couple of moments to ask the minister a few questions dealing with a particular issue that I raised in the House the other day. That has to do with the capital funding and the process that the communities use right now.
In particular, I refer to the capital funding in my region of the province and the Camperville area. The community of Camperville has been trying for some years now to get a firetruck. It is my understanding that through the regional process they have had the approval of the region, and they were supposed to be getting a firetruck. They were on the list, and at no point over the past three years were they told that theirs was not a good project. It got put on hold one year because of the hall that burned down, and they had to cover the insurance costs so they could not get their firetruck. It is my understanding that just very recently they found out that their project did not qualify.
So the question I have to ask of the minister is twofold, and I will begin with the regional, the process. If a project is recommended by the communities, is that recommendation taken very seriously or is there a process that overrules the decisions made by the communities?
Mr. Praznik: The member asks a very good question, because she catches us at a time when we are moving from one process to another. I think when I get into my explanation she will appreciate a little more my answer, which was I must admit somewhat short in the House the other day. I offer my apologies. I should have provided more information to the member.
The process we have used to date are where the communities, with departmental staff at the regional level, start the process by developing their wish list, so to speak. The communities, we have been working more and more with NACC as they have developed as part of this process, and so from the regional level we will get an allotment of projects from the region. We will get the wish list, we will get recommendations on the number of projects that come out of that process.
Then they will be dealt with centrally by both NACC and our departmental staff, who meet together and sort out the recommendations for the regions, because obviously it is not just allotting a pile of money between regions and saying, that is your budget for the region. It is the budget for all of the Northern Affairs communities.
So projects which may get support at the regional level, when they get to the central level, for lack of a better term, may not be as high a priority as others. A community hall may be a very high priority in a region, but when compared to a needed sewer, water, infrastructure project in a community in another region, may move down the list, as the member can appreciate. From that list then comes to me as minister a set of recommendations for the entire capital budget.
When the member spoke in the House the other day, the part of the equation that she was not aware of was that central step. Yes, the Camperville firetruck made it out of the regional discussions, but it was removed at the central table in which NACC was also very much a participant simply because of priorities within the overall province.
So the list that came to me from this process did not include a recommendation for a Camperville firetruck. I think when there are other issues we will get into that specifically.
Now, what really concerns me is when the member for Arthur-Virden gets into the questions. His knowledge of this area gives me great concern when he gets into the questioning, whether I can handle the issues.
To the member for Swan River (Ms. Wowchuk), what we are looking at over the last year is that we spent a fair bit of time with NACC, with our communities and our staff in developing a better process, one in which the criteria or the prioritizing of projects is done better at the regional level. Often what has happened to date at the regional level is it becomes the debate among a number of communities in a region about their priorities, but they are not judged against some objective standard.
Do we rate a water and sewer project higher than a community hall? What do you need to have in place before you do a project? Obviously, in the case of a firetruck, if you do not have a fire department that is--and I do not use this specifically for Camperville, although there are some issues around the training at Camperville--a community can request a firetruck, but if they do not have people willing to be volunteer firefighters and do the training, a firetruck in a garage means nothing. Those types of issues have to be included in the criteria by which projects are judged.
In the case of the firetruck, whether or not the truck one currently has is adequate and meets standards and is usable versus a repair or work that has to be done at a sewage lagoon because it is failing. What we have not had in the process to date is the kind of criteria by which projects should be rated within the region. They are sorted out within the politics of the region, and I say the "small p" politics of NACC communities and then come up to the central table. It is at the central table where those criteria tend to be applied.
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We have worked with the groups very strongly, and I would suggest by next year we get into the capital process. In the fall time we will be using a somewhat different process. We have developed, or will be developing, with NACC a set of objective criteria which we will use then to rate projects and that will then be carried on at the local level. When the member made her comments in the House, one can appreciate where they are coming from with the information that is available. We all represent communities who are going to be out there trying to get things for their community, and that is certainly fair. MLAs will be representing that; that is certainly fair.
What we have done is a fairly good consultative process over the years, and I think we are going to make it even better because what has been missing has been those objective criteria. When that happens at the regional level, you will probably have communities like Camperville and others who will be seeing how their projects stack up on objective criteria earlier rather than later.
Ms. Wowchuk: Did the minister then indicate that you are changing the process by which the regions participate? Are the people in the regions, the community councils, aware that this change is taking place? If this is going to be the process, how is it being accepted by people in the region?
Mr. Praznik: Over the last number of months, and I want to just make the point that this new process, if it is acceptable to NACC and all works out, will be in place for this coming budget. It was not in place for this past one. We have had a lot of discussions and workshops in our communities to develop a host of ideas. We have a report that I intend to be tabling prior to the NACC conference in August of this year, and we expect to have a fair bit of discussion with the NACC group at that convention. Given the fact that they were part of developing this new process and were very much part of it, and a lot of their suggestions and ideas were incorporated into it, I suspect it will be recommended by NACC this fall, and assuming it is recommended, that we will then have it in place for the fall time.
Ms. Wowchuk: Can the minister indicate, was there dissatisfaction amongst the communities with the old process that they made recommendations to have a new process in place, or where did the direction for this come from?
Mr. Praznik: Mr. Chair, we have launched in the Department of Northern Affairs over the last couple of years under the leadership of Tom Farrell as deputy, a whole general process of looking at what we do as a department and trying to improve the service we offer. In this particular area of the capital program, and as the member can appreciate we probably have about $12 million, $12.5 million worth of capital projects at any one time that come forward from the communities. Some of them are very much needed; others are, like any community, they have their wish list of things they would like to do if there is money available, and we spend about $2.5 million on capital.
So no matter how you make your selections of the projects you are going to take, you are always going to have people and communities that are not going to get the projects they want. Traditionally the process we have had has always led to some dissatisfaction, communities not understanding why they might get agreement in their region, but they do not get the project after it has gone through the central process with NACC and the department officials.
So we thought it would be better to have NACC communities help develop the criteria by which projects will be judged and have that criteria applied much earlier in the process, so that we reduce to some degree the number of communities who come out of it and say, well, how come I did not get my project? I have to tell the honourable member I get lobbied regularly--as I know she does from her communities--as minister, and the president of NACC tells me he gets lobbied regularly because, again, $2.5 million versus $12.5 million worth of requests and you are going to have people always saying, well, if I go see the minister or I go see my MLA, my project will get on the top of the list. We are trying to reduce that as much as possible.
Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Chair, the question I wanted to start off with, and I am not sure where it is going to fit in, but I will ask it anyway, and maybe the minister can think about it for a while after, because I think we are just about ready to adjourn.
Since I have--well, even before I came here, I looked at the government of Manitoba in this province--and also I am quite familiar with how the federal system works in regard to Northern Affairs or Indian affairs or aboriginal affairs--and I have always wondered how the minister interacts with other government departments because I see the Department of Northern Affairs as being--it could be a pretty important department. I am not saying that it is unimportant right now. I mean, it has a role to play. But in dealing with northern Manitoba and the residents there, particularly the NACC group, I have always viewed Northern Affairs as having a lot of potential to do many things, worthwhile things. I have always viewed it as well that the Minister of Northern Affairs is really in an advocacy role. I mean, he is a minister of the Crown, I realize that, but he is the Minister of Northern Affairs. There is no other Minister of Northern Affairs in this province. So I have always viewed the department as maybe playing some sort of an advocacy role for the North, you know, like the minister speaks for the North, the minister is in charge of some programs for the North.
Yet this department is so small compared to the work that I see and I always perceive that needs to be done through this department. I know there are other government departments like Education, Health and so on, but I wonder how the minister sees his role as the Minister of Northern Affairs. Does he go into cabinet speaking on behalf of northern Manitoba, or what is his role?
When I came here the budget was $20 million. It is down to $17 million. There is a changing demographic out there as a result of Bill C-31. Numbers in the Metis community are going down, while on the First Nations side the numbers are going up very drastically. So it is changing.
There is talk, like in the goals and objectives, mission statements, there is a lot of stuff written about local government, local government development, developing those people to the point where they can assume greater autonomy and all those fine words that come with the books that we look at every year. So I would like the minister to think about, how does he see his role as Minister of Northern Affairs? Does he see it the way I see it, or how important is the Department of Northern Affairs? Like I said, it has gone from $20 million to $17 million, and if it goes down to a million dollars--
Mr. Assistant Deputy Chairperson: Order, please. The hour being 6 p.m., as agreed, the committee will recess until 8 p.m. We will resume here at 8 p.m. in Room 255 to consider the Estimates of Northern and Native Affairs.