ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
Manitoba Telephone System
Advertising Campaign
Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, my question is to the First Minister.
During the election campaign the Premier promised that he would not sell the publicly owned Manitoba Telephone System. Subsequent to the campaign that promise was broken with many others, and we understand that the Manitoba Telephone System has now entered into a major advertising campaign to convince Manitobans it is a good idea to break the Premier's word from the election campaign.
I would like to ask the Premier, how much money is the Manitoba Telephone System paying for the advertising campaign and who has the advertising contract?
Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, those would be decisions that would be appropriately made, and have been made, by the management and board of the Manitoba Telephone System.
I would not have that information at my fingertips, but I will undertake to obtain that information and bring it back for the member's information.
Mr. Doer: Madam Speaker, the decision to break the word of the Premier was made by the Premier. The decision to sell the publicly owned Telephone System, contrary to election promise, that decision was made by the Premier and the government and announced by the government. We understand the Telephone System has hired an advertising agency and is spending considerable amounts of ratepayer money to convince the public of this campaign.
Can the Premier confirm that Foster Marks, the advertising company that was engaged by the Premier during the campaign to make contrary promises, has been hired for the advertising campaign, and can the Premier inform Manitobans what role does Barb Biggar have in this advertising campaign?
Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, that is a repetition of the same question. I have indicated that I do not have that information at my fingertips. I have undertaken to get that information.
I have been very open, as I was at the news conference in which we made the announcement about the recapitalization of Manitoba Telephone System into a private corporation. I said at that time that it was not an issue during the election campaign. It was not something we put out in any of our campaign platforms and when I was asked, I said that we had no plans to. I also indicated that the information that has subsequently come to our attention from the Crown Corporations Council in which they indicated that it is the highest risk Crown corporation that we have, with $850 million in debt and in an area--
* (1340)
An Honourable Member: Any Crown corporation is at risk with you in government.
Madam Speaker: Order, please.
Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, you know, the member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) does not have anything worthwhile to say from his feet so he says it all from his seat. The fact of the matter is--
Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.
Madam Speaker: Order, please. I would ask for the co-operation of all honourable members in showing more common courtesy to each other.
The honourable First Minister, to complete his response.
Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, that being the case, we have indicated the rationale for the privatization of the Manitoba Telephone System, and judging by the reaction, I would say of the employees as well as the general public they do not want to have anything to do with this ideological battle that the New Democrats, with their heads in the sand, want to conduct. The fact of the matter is that if people are going to be asked to invest in the Telephone System, they are going to want to know some of the things about the Telephone System and those things, obviously, are positive sides of the story which we are only too happy to share with the public.
Mr. Doer: Madam Speaker, of course the Premier knows that all Conservative candidates, especially in rural and northern Manitoba forums, promised that they would not sell the Manitoba publicly owned Crown corporation. It was an issue in the campaign and many forums that took place across the province, but we have seen the Premier's word on other promises and we are, unfortunately, not surprised on this one. I asked the Premier, how much is the campaign? He did not answer. I asked whether Foster Marks had been hired. He did not answer. I asked the role of Barb Biggar. He did not answer.
Can the Premier please tell Manitobans what is the role of Foster Marks, what is the role of Barb Biggar and how much are the ratepayers of Manitoba Telephone System going to pay for an advertising campaign to convince Manitobans that the Premier's broken promise is a good idea?
Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, the member opposite is wrong on every count. The fact of the matter is that all members of this government have stated exactly the same thing, that we had no plans to sell or privatize the Manitoba Telephone System, which was the truth. The member is wrong when he says I did not answer the questions. I said that I did not have that information at my--[interjection] Now the member for Crescentwood (Mr. Sale) wants to get in. All of the leadership candidates over there have something to say.
Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.
Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable First Minister, to complete his response.
Mr. Filmon: I said that I would take the question as notice and I would bring the information back to the member for Concordia (Mr. Doer), and I will do that.
* (1345)
Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation
Actuarial Report
Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): My question is to the Minister responsible for MPIC. Yesterday, the minister promised to release the names of the outside actuarial firms and individuals who work on the actuarial reports at the MPIC.
I would like to ask the minister, can the minister tell the House the names of the independent actuarial firms and the individuals who work for the MPIC and the actuary in particular who did the report on the initial $29-million tort claim reserve and the one who did the report on the increase of that reserve to $49 million? What are the names of the actuaries who worked on this tort claim reserve?
Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister charged with the administration of The Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation Act): Madam Speaker, it seems to me that these are professional people who are prepared to stand behind their advice. I will certainly inquire as to who it was.
Mr. Maloway: I am surprised that after eight years as minister, the minister still does not know who the actuaries are who do the work for the corporation.
Madam Speaker: Order, please. I would remind the honourable member for Elmwood, this is not a time for debate. The honourable member, to pose a supplementary question.
Mr. Maloway: I would like to ask the same minister, would the minister table all actuarial reports issued from March 1, 1994--that is the date the tort system ended--and June 10, 1994, the date the minister requested that the PUB reduce the rates for the 1995 year?
Mr. Cummings: On two counts, first of all, the member will have plenty of opportunity when we put the corporation in front of the committee of the House and we will certainly make all information available, and I will take his question as notice and make sure that we have the appropriate people available to respond.
Price Waterhouse Role
Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): The minister knows that the committee will not meet for a number of months. It will not meet till the fall.
I would like to ask this minister, can the minister tell us the nature of work that former board chairman Don Penny and Price Waterhouse do for the corporation?
Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister charged with the administration of The Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation Act): The member I guess has a bit of a short memory. He has forgotten that in 1987 the previous government that he was part of could not add. Apparently he still cannot because he is attempting on a minimal amount of information to indicate that there is a 23 percent increase in the offing. I guarantee you that from the information that I have seen the people of the province will be pleasantly surprised when the corporation puts its application in front of the Public Utilities Board.
One of the things that has been the most important is that we have done a great deal to make sure that this corporation is run at arm's length, that it reports through the Public Utilities Board. Frankly, if the member is asking about who may or may not have done some work for the corporation, I will have to inquire because it certainly never crosses my desk.
Public Accounts
Accounting Principles
Mr. Tim Sale (Crescentwood): Madam Speaker, the government likes to draw an analogy between families and their finances and government and its finances, but if a family hid revenues from the tax man and a trust fund and did not declare it, the tax man would come back with a fairly strong message. If the family did it over a number of years, they would be charged with tax fraud.
Can the Minister of Finance tell Manitobans why they should not charge him and his government with tax fraud over his various shenanigans with the lottery trust funds and his so-called balanced budget?
Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance): Madam Speaker, I would encourage the member for Crescentwood to look at the accounting practices right across Canada, what some other provinces like the Province of Saskatchewan, like the Province of Alberta are doing. We certainly do not need any accounting lessons from the members opposite. We have taken the accounting of the Province of Manitoba and basically moved it to a full accrual accounting system, unlike what was taking place back in the '80s under the NDP when it was basically a cash system of accounting.
In terms of any stabilization accounts or lottery trust accounts, that information has been readily available through the Public Accounts. Finally, it came to light when members opposite decided it would be something worthwhile looking at in terms of looking at the Public Accounts. That information is clearly laid out in those documents, has been and will continue to be.
* (1350)
Mr. Sale: Madam Speaker, can the minister tell the House why he wants to have it both ways? He wants to correct the past accounting errors for 1995 in his '96-97 budget, but he wants to claim a balanced budget on that error in accounting for 1995-96. The auditors told him he cannot do it. Why does he persist in trying to have it both ways?
Mr. Stefanson: Madam Speaker, as usual, as is the common pattern, the member for Crescentwood is absolutely wrong. I encourage him to look at and read a letter that was tabled--
Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.
Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable Minister of Finance, to complete his response.
Mr. Stefanson: Madam Speaker, I encourage the member for Crescentwood and members opposite to read a letter that was tabled in this House just last week by the Acting Provincial Auditor in terms of the accounting process. The Provincial Auditor recommended that we change the treatment of the recording of lottery income. That is taking place in 1996-97.
The accounting treatment that we are using in '95-96 is exactly the same as has been in place for the last four years in Manitoba. It is exactly the same as the Province of Saskatchewan, it is exactly the same as the Province of Alberta, and this whole idea about accounting practices and so on is certainly something we do not need any lessons from the NDP on because if you go back to the kinds of statements that were produced under the NDP when it was on not only a cash basis but they were taking some of the assets owned by the taxpayers of Manitoba and taking them off the books of government and transferring them to another corporation, we do not need lessons from them.
Mr. Sale: Madam Speaker, will the minister today commit to the House that if any Crown corporation is sold, the net proceeds will go directly to the debt retirement fund and not to his election slush fund, his stabilization fund?
Mr. Stefanson: Well, from the member for Crescentwood who is so concerned about accounting treatment, I should inform him that if an asset is sold by the Province of Manitoba, that will be reflected through our accounts, will be reflected if there is a gain on the disposition of the asset, will be reflected as a gain and revenue to the province. Ultimately, the distribution of those revenues and those surpluses flow to the fiscal stabilization account, as provided in our balanced budget legislation.
Our target, as the members opposite know, is to get that account up to 5 percent of our expenditures. They have been concerned about us having flexibility for any unforeseen expenditure requirements, a revenue reduction. That is why the target is 5 percent. Thereafter, we will be faced with decisions whether or not we can apply it to the debt, whether or not there are other services we have to provide, whether we do anything on the taxation front, but again all with a view with what is in the best interests of Manitobans.
Acting Provincial Auditor
Intimidation
Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): Madam Speaker, I, too, have a question for the Minister of Finance.
It has been reported that the Minister of Finance was surprised that the Provincial Auditor had not talked to him prior to the last Public Accounts committee meeting about the issue of using accumulated lottery funds, allowing the government to show a surplus rather than a deficit for 1995-96. Also, it has been reported that the minister's staff met with the Auditor to seek a so-called solution to confusion that might arise from the Auditor's statement at the Public Accounts committee meeting. This is nothing short of intimidation of a responsible official in an acting position, nothing short of intimidation.
Madam Speaker: Order, please. I would ask that the honourable member for Brandon East pose his question now.
Mr. Leonard Evans: Will the minister assure this House, this Assembly that he will not take retaliatory or punitive action against the Acting Provincial Auditor who was simply upholding accepted provincial accounting policies?
Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance): Madam Speaker, that is a difficult question to respond to because it is so totally ridiculous. There is no intimidation of the Provincial Auditor, but certainly the Provincial Auditor, and he acknowledged himself, feels on many kinds of issues there should be a relationship in terms of keeping us informed of decisions and positions that they are taking. That was the view on this issue, that we had not been made aware of the more current concerns of the Acting Provincial Auditor. We certainly are aware of the concerns expressed by the previous Provincial Auditor back in the 1994-95 report. We have acknowledged that we are taking those concerns to heart and we are changing the treatment of lottery revenues in 1996-97.
I encourage the member for Brandon East to go back and read the report of the Provincial Auditor for 1994-95 and what the Provincial Auditor says about the standards, and I will gladly, Madam Speaker, take the time to read that into the record if the member does not have time to go back to the Public Accounts.
* (1355)
Balanced Budget Legislation
Accounting Principles
Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): Madam Speaker, does the minister agree with the Provincial Auditor who stated that the balanced budget legislation was not designed around generally accepted accounting principles? That is, will the minister acknowledge that his surplus was the result of creative accounting, including the use of accumulated lottery funds and the transfer of 1994 revenues from the sale of Crown assets such as McKenzie Seeds to 1995, in order to show a surplus instead of a deficit?
Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance): Madam Speaker, the hypocrisy of discussing generally accepted accounting principles with members opposite, if you go back to the kind of accounting that took place from 1981 to 1988 when this province was on a cash basis and not an accrual basis, when the government of the day took assets and took them off the books of the government and put them into a separate corporation, Manitoba Properties Inc., we do not need accounting lessons from members opposite based on their past practices. I want to tell the member for Brandon East--
Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.
Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable Minister of Finance, to complete his response.
Mr. Stefanson: Madam Speaker, to briefly conclude, there are many elements of so-called generally accepted accounting principles that have not been practised by provincial governments and federal governments because of the unique nature of government accounting.
I want to tell the member for Brandon East--and I will quote the Provincial Auditor because I am concerned that he might not have the time to go back and read that report: The harmonization of standards for public sector financial reporting is relatively new when compared to the standard-setting process which is in place in the private sector. We commend those who have been responsible for seeing that the province's financial statements have continued to evolve to match up with recommended standards.
That is what the Provincial Auditor said in 1994-95, unlike what was happening when he was a member of government, Madam Speaker.
Acting Provincial Auditor
Jules Benson Involvement
Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): I would like to ask the minister, in this clarification, an education meeting between his financial officers and the Provincial Auditor, was Mr. Jules Benson involved in that meeting?
Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.
Madam Speaker: Order, please. I would remind all honourable members that the clock is still running and this is your time.
Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance): Madam Speaker, I am assuming the member for Brandon East is getting his source from an article that appeared in one of our local papers yesterday that refers to Mr. Johnson admitting he had been called by the Finance department after his committee testimony. In terms of how the discussion with Mr. Johnson took place, I am not sure. I will have to determine whether or not it was a phone call, whether or not it was a meeting, and if it was a phone call, who made the phone call, if it was a meeting, who participated in the meeting. I will gladly provide that information to the member for Brandon East.
* (1400)
Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation
Rate Increase
Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, back in 1988, the Premier was the biggest critic when it came to the politicization of MPIC. In the 1995 election there was no rate increase application put forward from MPIC. In 1996 we saw a 6.2 percent rate increase application put forward, and who knows what percentage increase we are going to see requested of PUB, other than the fact that we are not in an election year so there will be an increased application.
My question for the Minister responsible for MPIC is, can the minister tell this House why in an election year the board of MPIC did not ask for a rate increase and just a year after the election MPIC requested 6.1, and we do not know what they are going to be requesting this year?
Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister charged with the administration of The Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation Act): Madam Speaker, obviously the member does not want to reflect on the kind of driving year that we have just experienced over the last six months.
Let me also remind him that with the introduction of the Personal Injury Protection Plan, we predicted significant savings would accrue to the plan and at the same time those who were dramatically injured would receive extraordinary benefits where that was necessary. I think he is unhappy because of the results of the election, but he should not be unhappy about the rates that MPIC has been charging.
Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, maybe then the minister can explain, given his answer, why it is there was no rate increase when you had the Crown Corporations Council in 1994 and in 1993 recommending that there should have been cash reserves so, in essence, what would have happened is we would not be receiving the type of increases that we are receiving today as a direct result of government incompetence?
Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.
Madam Speaker: Order, please.
Mr. Cummings: Well, Madam Speaker, I am certainly not laughing at the seriousness of the question from the member. I am laughing at the fact that he would even reference the fact that the corporation was directed to provide reserves. What does he think the $29 million in the rate stabilization reserve was--corn flakes?
Mr. Lamoureux: Amazing answer, Madam Speaker.
My question to the minister is, would he not agree that the Premier (Mr. Filmon) was right in 1988 when he made the statement that the New Democrats were politicizing the MPIC rate structure and that the same principles that he used in 1988 should in fact be used today, and maybe ask the Premier to make an apology for manipulating this whole process of rate setting?
Mr. Cummings: Madam Speaker, we have been working diligently since 1988 to make sure that this corporation of all corporations is seen to be free of being politically maneuvered. We have used the reference to the Public Utilities Board where they can recommend increases, if necessary, in the rates as they review them. We have seen the Public Utilities Board recommend that a reserve in fact be put in place for rate stabilization, and we have done everything we can to put the responsibility in the hands of the duly appointed board members to run that corporation to the benefit of the motoring public of this province.
Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation
Actuarial Report
Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister charged with the administration of The Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation Act): Madam Speaker, while I have the floor I would like to indicate in response to a question that I took as notice--
Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.
Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable Minister responsible for the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation, to respond to a question taken as notice.
Mr. Cummings: Yes, if I may. Earlier in this Question Period I was asked about who was the responsible actuary for MPI. It is the firm of Tillinghast, and I believe the person is David Oakden.
Community Release Centre
Staffing
Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): Madam Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Justice.
It was in June that the minister promised and I quote, very intensive supervision for adult inmates released on temporary absence passes. The Community Release Centre at 10 Midland Street in Winnipeg is responsible for supervising released inmates, as well as those on bail.
My question for the minister: Would she explain how she could promise this very intensive supervision when we understand that staff at the Release Centre has been slashed from a planned 14 in 1993 to just three today, a gutting of 79 percent?
Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, the information that I have is not the same as the member opposite. It does not surprise me that he often has wrong information.
Let me tell you what the staffing at the Remand Centre was in 1988 and before when his party was in government. It was one to two staff members supervising. It was less than a bare-bones operation at that time. It was this government that has increased the staffing at the CRCs and, in doing so, also has looked at where programming should be offered and that programming is not offered at the same level through that particular centre now.
Mr. Mackintosh: Madam Speaker, could the minister explain the effect on public safety where these supervisors have been slashed from one for every 10 released inmates to one for every 60?
Mrs. Vodrey: Madam Speaker, first of all, I do not accept any of the numbers that the member brings forward. We will be dealing with the Corrections line. I am prepared to move that Corrections line up when we move into Estimates this afternoon following Question Period, if that would be helpful to the member who is continually bringing forward numbers which in many cases are simply not accurate.
Madam Speaker, let me just say that prisoners who are out on temporary absences, the numbers fluctuate hourly and daily. There are changes continually in terms of the numbers because some people reach the end of their sentence, some temporary absences are for medical reasons, people attend funerals and so on. So the member is continually taking a very complex set of circumstances, a very complex series of issues and trying to wrap them into a simple question and trying to find some difficulties.
As I have said, we are coming to the Estimates of the Department of Justice. I will be pleased to move up the Corrections line following Question Period and answer his question in detail.
Mr. Mackintosh: How can the minister, who should know all of the documents in her department on the CRC, how can she talk about in-your-face Corrections? How can she talk about intensive supervision when, as of last Tuesday, 10 percent of those sentenced to prison, in fact, 135 adult inmates alone, are unlawfully at large?
Mrs. Vodrey: Again, I do not accept any of the numbers put forward by the member opposite who freely throws out numbers and often does not have the understanding of what those numbers mean.
Let me just explain some of the changes that have taken place in Corrections because there has been a general decrease in prison population. That is one fact. Secondly, we have increased the qualifications that an individual must meet in terms of time served before they are granted temporary absences. So there have been some significant changes in the area of Corrections around temporary absences and around prison populations. But let the underlying and the most important fact never be lost, when they were in government they had one to two individuals supervising out of that institution, less than a bare-bones institution in supervision.
Point of Order
Mr. Mackintosh: Madam Speaker, on a point of order. In response to the minister's allegations, I would like to table the count from last Tuesday.
Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for St. Johns does not have a point of order. It is clearly a dispute over the facts.
* (1410)
Louisiana-Pacific
Environmental Licensing
Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River): Madam Speaker, from the time the Louisiana-Pacific agreement was announced, there were many issues raised by local people with respect to this deal. In particular, independent sawmill operators asked for assurances that they would be able to have wood supplies for their mill. Bands in the area asked that treaty land entitlements be settled, which have not been addressed.
My question is to the Premier. Can he tell this House why his government has failed to address these important issues that have been raised since the beginning of the agreement? Why have they not been addressed before the issuing of the licence to Louisiana-Pacific?
Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): You know, the member for Swan River cannot have it both ways. In her own constituency she goes there as a proponent of economic development. She goes there saying that she is all in favour of ensuring that they get jobs and economic investment and that Louisiana-Pacific is good for the economy. Then she goes to meetings of New Democrats and she says--Wowchuk spoke at length on the Louisiana-Pacific agreement with the Conservative government of Gary Filmon. She referred to it as a sweetheart deal which ignores environmental laws and concerns.
The fact of the matter is that she represents, of course, the worst of the New Democratic Party. It is the no-development party, and that is what happens when she comes and attempts to play both sides of the issue.
Point of Order
Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): Madam Speaker, a point of order, Beauchesne Citation 417 is very clear: “Answers to questions should be as brief as possible, deal with the matter raised, and should not provoke debate.”
I realize the First Minister is sensitive about the member for Swan River, but she represents the constituency of Swan River.
Madam Speaker: On the point of order raised by the honourable member for Thompson, I would indeed agree he has a point of order. I would request that the honourable First Minister not provoke debate in providing his response to the question.
Cutting Areas
Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River): Madam Speaker, since the government has said many times that it has more than enough wood to meet the needs of Louisiana-Pacific even though many people have disputed them, and the Clean Environment Commission has made recommendations that there be no harvesting--
Madam Speaker: Order, please. I am sure there is a question here.
Ms. Wowchuk: Will the minister explain why his government has refused to accept the recommendation made by the Clean Environment Commission that says, no harvesting of wood will occur in the boundaries of areas considered currently under consideration for additions to the Duck Mountain Provincial Park? Why are you ignoring that recommendation if you are so sure there is so much wood there for all of this development?
Hon. Albert Driedger (Minister of Natural Resources): Madam Speaker, I covered part of that in my Estimates when I said that the areas that were being considered to be set aside for endangered spaces, that no cutting is allowed there until we have established the rules properly and had a chance to look at it.
The assessment is being done right now. Once that is done, we will establish whether there should be any cutting allowed or not.
Ms. Wowchuk: Madam Speaker, I would like the minister to explain to people of rural Manitoba and the Swan River constituency, who have asked that the Roaring River Canyon and the Shell River Canyon be set aside and now the government is allowing logging in here, how does this fit in with their 12 percent set-aside plan? Why are they not listening to local people when they make recommendations for areas to be set aside because they want green space?
Mr. Driedger: Madam Speaker, the two areas that the member for Swan River has made reference to are areas that we are looking at. We are working together with the company to make sure that no cutting takes place that will create a problem for us out there.
The company of Louisiana-Pacific I have to say is a good corporation, easy to work with, with my department. We are looking after the concerns. They are very conscientious about environmental impacts, endangered spaces, and I wish that all the citizens of Manitoba would have that kind of an attitude in terms of looking after basically our concerns environmentally with endangered spaces.
Manitoba Hydro-Centra Gas
Joint Venture
Ms. MaryAnn Mihychuk (St. James): Madam Speaker, my question is for the Minister responsible for Manitoba Hydro.
Last week's announcement of the agreement in principle to undertake a joint venture between Manitoba Hydro and Centra Gas raises a lot of questions concerning the conflict of interest in the areas of competitive services like home heating and appliances, energy supplied to medium- and small-sized industries, as well as the eventual privatization of Manitoba Hydro.
My question to the minister: Can the minister produce any departmental Manitoba Hydro or independent consulting report that would recommend such an unprecedented move?
Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister charged with the administration of The Manitoba Hydro Act): Madam Speaker, first of all, I have to challenge the member's statement that this is an unprecedented move.
If the member would spend some time studying the energy industry across the world, certainly in North America, she would recognize that there are efficiencies to be gained in working co-operatively here. In fact, if anything, this kind of move assures the long-term viability of Manitoba Hydro. It is a very good move for the corporation, and I think the member is trying to make far more of it than is actually the case.
As well, if she would read the recent ruling of the Public Utilities Board, she would find that they deliberately said to the corporation, find ways to reduce your costs of delivering your service. This is certainly one of them in line with that thinking.
Ms. Mihychuk: Will the minister finally put on the record that the big winner in this deal is Centra Gas with roughly 130,000 customers, while Manitoba Hydro has three times as many customers, and that Manitoba Hydro is being used to subsidize the private sector?
Mr. Praznik: I may be appealing into a void, but I am going to appeal to the member's common sense, because it does not take someone of great ability to figure out that it costs the consumer more when you have two people coming to one place to read two different meters when one person while they are there can read both. The vast majority of Manitobans, except perhaps some of the members and her colleagues, can figure out that there are savings in that process.
The Public Utilities Board of this province, in restricting the rate increase for Manitoba Hydro, challenged it to find these kinds of savings. I am excited by the opportunities for Manitoba Hydro to be a participant in serving our customers better and helping them get their best value for their energy needs.
If we do not get into this business, Madam Speaker, someone else will, and the member will be getting up criticizing us for not getting into it. This is just silly.
Ms. Mihychuk: The only one being silly is the minister trying to fool Manitobans.
Madam Speaker: Order, please. I would remind the honourable member for St. James that on a second and final supplementary question, there is to be no debate and no preamble. The honourable member, to pose her question now.
* (1420)
Ms. Mihychuk: I would ask the minister to be serious and I hope straightforward. Will the minister tell us what the numbers will be after Manitoba Hydro is forced to turn over its detailed customer information to its competition, Centra Gas?
Mr. Praznik: The purpose of this service company that we have struck jointly with Centra Gas is, firstly, to address those particular areas where we are both providing service now and we can reduce costs by providing it together. Surely the member for St. James is not asking to double the cost of reading meters simply because she does not want to work out a better arrangement.
Secondly, this company gives Manitoba Hydro the opportunity to work with another energy provider to find ways to better service our customers, because if we do not get into that business, someone else will and we will lose that.
I have referred from time to time as the members being tied up in Jurassic Park. They should get out of this building and go and find out a little bit about what is happening in the energy sector across North America and realize that Manitoba Hydro wants to be on the leading front of where we are, not where they want us to be, which is in the past.
Madam Speaker: Order, please. Time for Oral Questions has expired.