Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, yesterday I asked the Premier (Mr. Filmon) to table all documents dealing with the Rimer Alco decision of the government and the privatization of the Home Oxygen Therapy Program, and yesterday again we had other health care experts, the Manitoba association of respiratory technologists and therapists joining other Manitobans who have been opposed to the process and the decision of the government in the privatization of the Home Oxygen Therapy Program.

Again, I would like to ask the Premier today will he order his Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson) and his Minister of Health to table all reports and all analysis so the public will be able to evaluate the process that the government used that is contrary to the wishes of people providing the health care and the cost issues in this decision.

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Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, as we have discussed over and over in this House in the last couple of weeks, I think all of that information has been put on the record, and what has come out of it time and time again is the information on which the Leader of the Opposition relies has not proven to have been the case. Either he is referring to out-of-date reports, either he is making innuendo, either he is attacking this particular company and its ability to deliver service, and at the end of the day even the reports that have been referenced publicly, the tender price on this particular service came in at a level below that which the department has estimated that it would cost to continue the service on its own, and it has met all the quality requirements.

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, day after day after day we have had the Minister of Health say he has no reports, he has no analysis, he has no cost. We tabled them and now he has confirmed there are three reports. There are letters from health care experts opposing the decision. We have heard from patients, from families who are opposed to this decision to privatize this Home Oxygen Therapy Program.

I would like to ask the Premier (Mr. Filmon) today will he send the matter and the dealings of this Home Oxygen Therapy privatization matter, will he send this whole matter to the Auditor for a special independent review to analyze the failure of his Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson) and his Minister of Health on behalf of Manitobans. Will he send that to the Provincial Auditor?

Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition speaks about failure. Members of the opposition also have a responsibility in public debate to be accurate, to get their facts straight, to test their accusations before they put them on the public record. What we have heard in this House day after day is attack on a Manitoba company that has made significant strides in making the oxygen business more affordable to Manitobans.

I would like to table a newspaper clipping today from The Times newspaper of Morden and district in which the reporter interviewed people who had dealt with Rimer Alco. I quote from the story: Critics are charging that the company does not have the expertise or the manpower to take the home oxygen market.

"Don Smith, the maintenance supervisor at the Souris Hospital, which was the first in North America to have an oxygen concentrator, disagrees.

"Smith says if Rimer-Alco works as hard on this project as they have on the hospitals, there is nothing to worry about.

"'We've had nothing but excellent service,' he said. 'This is not a fly-by-night operation.'"

Madam Speaker, the members are continually wrong.

Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): A point of order, Madam Speaker. Beauchesne Citation 417 is very clear that "Answers to questions should be as brief as possible, deal with the matter raised and should not provoke debate."

The minister was asked a question originally about release of reports. He was then asked a question about the referral of this matter to the Auditor. The response has nothing whatsoever to do with the question. I would like to ask for the answer to the very serious questions asked by the Leader of the Opposition as to when they will refer it to the Auditor to get some independent analysis on the very questionable way this contract has been let.

Madam Speaker: The honourable government House leader, on the same point of order.

Hon. James McCrae (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, I acknowledge what Beauchesne says about responses to questions, but we have rules in this Chamber that call for certain rules to be followed with respect to the putting of questions as well. When questions import or bring into the discussion argumentative scenarios and questions of debate, I think that if there is a warning to be issued to honourable members in the government for making the responses they sometimes do--and I acknowledge that too--honourable members on the side asking the questions surely ought to abide by the same rules.

Madam Speaker: On the point of order raised by the honourable member for Thompson, I will take the matter under advisement and report back to the House.

Mr. Doer: I asked the Premier (Mr. Filmon) a very, very simple question which he refused to answer again. I asked the Premier to send this decision, the decision to contract and privatize out the whole Home Oxygen Program, contrary to the reports we have tabled, the specific contract, contrary to the recommendation of his own steering committee, the decision that is contrary to the therapists in the field and the patients that we have been listening to, I have asked the Premier to send this to the Provincial Auditor for an independent review of what is in the best interests for Manitobans in terms of patient care and cost.

Will the Premier do the right thing today and send it to the Provincial Auditor and quit hiding?

Mr. Praznik: The Leader of the Opposition asks his question on the basis of reports, many of which he has brought to this House that are not accurate. If I may continue from that particular article, because I think it makes the point that the Leader of the Opposition does not have all the facts.

This Mr. Smith said that there is no reason for concern. I would assure anybody that they have nothing to worry about, he said. "'I wouldn't be concerned for a minute if it was a family member of mine.'"

Dave Destoop has said he is also fully confident in a job Rimer Alco can do. His father depends on an oxygen concentrator. Mark Neskar, CEO at the Dauphin hospital, also supports Rimer Alco's bid, and I quote, "Based on their reputation in dealing with institutions such as ours, I would think they would be a good choice."

Madam Speaker, the premise on the basis of his question does not bear the scrutiny of facts.

Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, this morning workers from some of our hospitals and institutions brought their case to the Legislature against the privatization of services. They are willing to change, but they want someone to listen to them and their proposals. I think there was a flicker of hope from the Minister of Health and for that I thank him for this morning's attendance.

Will the minister confirm to the workers and Manitobans that he will ensure that the workers' proposal which has been shown by an independent analysis to be cheaper than the privatization proposal will be given serious consideration by the government and its agency, the Shared Services Corporation?

Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, I would like to thank the member for Kildonan for the invitation, along with members of the CUPE local, to attend with some of my other colleagues the bit of an informational breakfast this morning here at the Legislative Building.

Just with respect to the preamble, the Urban Shared Services committee is not an agency of government. It was an institution created by the hospital independent boards, the hospitals in the city of Winnipeg. It is representative of their efforts to find ways of dealing with and saving costs. We do not directly or indirectly control that organization. They have to be answerable for their decisions.

But, as I indicated this morning, I asked them last week to not make decisions on these matters until they have had a chance to meet with the new CEO and chair of the Winnipeg Hospital Authority once they are appointed. I think that is important, because the Winnipeg Hospital Authority will have to live with the decisions that are made by USSC.

Mr. Chomiak: My supplementary to the same minister: will the minister, who has said that the new hospital authority is going to meet with Versa and which does not actually come into legal effect until April 1 of 1998, confirm what I believe he said this morning, that he will ask that the matter, the awarding of the contract to the private firm Versa, be delayed until the organization has an opportunity to have their case presented to them, their very strong case by the workers and others who can demonstrate and have demonstrated they can deliver the service in the public sector without privatization cheaper, Madam Speaker?

Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, as I indicated this morning, last week when I met with Urban Shared Services--because this next year will be a transition year and ultimately the Winnipeg Hospital Authority will have responsibility for those areas--I asked the board of Urban Shared Services not to enter or complete this arrangement until they have had a chance to meet with the new Winnipeg Hospital Authority, their board and CEO, which should be in place very shortly, to review this question, because he, like I, appreciates that if this Winnipeg Hospital Authority is going to be living with that decision, they should be comfortable and be assured that it is in fact the right decision. So I have asked for that to take place, and I did that last week.

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Mr. Chomiak: Madam Speaker, I thank the minister for that response.

Will the minister give his personal commitment that consideration of the workers' modest demands, as laid out this morning, will be seriously considered, namely a review of their proposal, delay of privatization so public ownership can be assessed? Will he truly open up the process so that they do not have to take their claims to the Legislature, so they can actually have a say in what is going on and some kind of representation regarding their future work conditions under these changed circumstances?

Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, I think the member for Kildonan and I both share, as do members on this side of the House, I believe all members, an interest to ensure that people who work in the health care system are treated fairly.

I think one of the regrets we have all had over the past number of years is we have watched independent hospital institutions make decisions. The way collective agreements are structured, I do not blame anyone for that. Often, very common-sense decisions result in great dislocation that is not necessary. One of the charges that we make to the new Winnipeg Hospital Authority in taking over, that they take those things into account and they work to make sure that we are dealing with those kinds of issues that affect the people who work in the system.

Madam Speaker, on the lab issue, I know that the union representing lab technicians became, in fact, a partner with one of the bidders and put together a very excellent bid that took into account many of these issues. I hope in any other change that comes that that is something that should be considered and worked into the system.

We share that same concern, Madam Speaker.

Mr. Gerard Jennissen (Flin Flon): Madam Speaker, my question is for the Health minister. As the minister knows, the Mathias Colomb First Nation, I and others have pointed out that listing Pukatawagan in the Burntwood Regional Health Authority rather than in the Norman Regional Health Authority makes little sense.

Given that the RHAs are being imposed next week and given that Pukatawagan has historic transportation and cultural links with The Pas, will the minister commit to including Pukatawagan in the Norman Regional Health Authority?

Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, when I met with the regional health authorities in the North and Burntwood and Norman early in the year, that same request was made to me, and I have certainly committed to do that, should I have a request, of course, from the Mathias Colomb First Nation. I imagine that will probably be coming.

I say to the member as well that I met with MKO yesterday and AMC, and there are some other issues arising in their transference from Medical Services Branch that may actually overtake that to some degree. But yes, I am certainly willing to do it when I have that formal request from Mathias Colomb.

Mr. Jennissen: I thank the minister.

Given, though, that the loss of Puk would have major financial implications for Norman, could the minister tell the House what the projected impacts are in terms of services such as obstetrics and staffing levels if this decision is not changed?

Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, I appreciate second questions, the opportunity to get more facts on the record.

I appreciate fully that difficulty, that the flow of transportation and services from that community is to The Pas, I believe, as opposed to Thompson. The request, everybody agreed to it. I just wanted to make sure that the Mathias Colomb First Nation was on record as requesting that to make sure they were onside. If they are, I am prepared to move that. There are some logistics, but I do not think they are particularly onerous.

Mr. Jennissen: I thank the minister for the answer.

Mr. Gerard Jennissen (Flin Flon): My final question, final supplementary: when will the minister act on the announcement of March 1995 on the new personal care home in Flin Flon promised just a week before the election?

Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): As was discussed in the budget, we have a new capital program in place and a process in place, and in speaking to the chairs and CEOs of the 11 northern and rural regional health authorities, we informed them that we will be putting a process together to review all of those capital projects.

There are some significant dollars to begin announcing projects next fall to get on with the process and sorting them through, but we thought with the new regional health authorities it was incumbent on us to give them some time to sort through their priorities. I am sure some priorities will change given other opportunities in the health mix, and some of them will certainly survive that test because they are very needed. We will see how the process progresses with respect to that project.

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Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): My question is to the Minister of Justice. On Saturday we heard from the Winnipeg Police Services Street Gang Unit that the number of known gang members and associates had skyrocketed from 800 in September to over 1,300 today. That is a frightening explosion that we believe is in no small way due to the hibernation on this issue by the government. They never even mentioned the issue in the throne speech or the budget speech.

My question to the minister is would he admit that the only provincially driven initiative that is available to help the community deal with gangs, when you scrape away all the puffery, is just the gang hotline. Does he agree with the former minister who said that the hotline was extremely helpful, or with everyone else, including the secretariat of the Youth Secretariat and their committee on gangs that said, and I quote, the gang line that is currently in place is not meeting the needs of youth, parents and community?

Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): I appreciate the question from the member for St. Johns. The issue of an appropriate gang strategy, of course, is a very difficult one. I want to assure the member that we have been working very, very diligently in respect of our area of responsibility.

I think it is important to set out for the record exactly the role of the Attorney General of Manitoba, the police departments and the federal government. It is important that we have that discussion. I hope to have that discussion at the Estimates to clarify any misunderstandings that my colleague from St. Johns has. I want to assure him that we are, in fact, working very, very diligently in respect of this matter, but I can provide him with more details at Estimates.

Mr. Mackintosh: Is the government just floundering or is that too generous in light of my understanding that, No. 1, the government has failed to publish and distribute a gang awareness manual for parents that staff had prepared over a year ago in the department and, No. 2, the only actually preventative program delivered by the department or funded by the department, the Night Hoops basketball program for innercity youth, has been scrapped?

They are going backwards, not forwards.

Mr. Toews: I disagree with the member's comments, and I want to focus in on one issue. I know that the issue of criminal activities by gangs is a multifaceted approach. One approach that we are very mindful of and are, in fact, very pleased at is the very aggressive position that the police in our city have taken in respect of the recent spate of armed robberies. We saw some very decisive and prompt action by the police. That in itself is not the entire answer but suppression, as the member for St. Johns knows, is an important factor in containing this very serious problem.

Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): A final supplementary, Madam Speaker: would the minister who said this weekend that he would like to see the parties in the Legislature work together more on this issue and given the government's sapping of measures, would the government now be prepared to accept the essence of our 18-point gang action plan in the positive and constructive spirit that it was officially presented to the government, to the Premier (Mr. Filmon) back on September 11?

We never got so much as a response.

Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, I believe that I was sincere when I indicated that I was willing to work with all parties in respect of this problem. It is not an issue that is owned by myself personally or any agency.

I would like to indicate I appreciate the co-operation I received from the member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux), who invited me to see his youth justice committee in action. I went over to his area of town where he is the MLA. I had an opportunity to speak to some of the concerns. Some concerns were identified, and I think the positive attitude that the member for Inkster has demonstrated indicates in fact that I am willing to work together with all members, including the member for St. Johns.

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Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Health. It is dealing with the whole health care reform package which the government attempts to put across to Manitobans, and the concern is of course that it is a twist of philosophical needs of this government to favour privatization for profit. We have seen it in terms of the home care services, the labs and now, it would appear, with the food services.

My question to the minister is specific. When are we going to see a government that is going to focus more on the needs of delivering health care programs for average Manitobans, not for just the elite of society?

Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, to make that comment about focusing on the elite of society is just not worthy of the member for Inkster. I have known him for many years and it is not worthy of him. I do not want to get into the reductions in transfer payments that the federal Liberals have imposed upon us that we have had to live with, but for him to get up and make that statement in the House and be a Liberal and a supporter of the federal Liberal Party makes no support.

Madam Speaker, last week in this Assembly we heard him defend vehemently a system of private corporate organization in our health care system that is preventing us doing many of the things that we need to do smoothly and easily to improve health care for Manitobans. I do not know which side of the fence he is on.

Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, then the question to the minister would be why would consideration be given and, in fact, an approval for a contract, when you have the CUPE provincial health care council which demonstrates in a report that there are cost savings which they can manage which would in fact exceed the privatization for profit. Why is the minister not prepared to acknowledge that right up front?

Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, my recommendation to the member for Inkster is he go back to the people who spoke to him from the various hospital boards a week or so ago, who urged him to come in here and take on the government because they felt they were being pushed into a centrally managed system. I would suggest that he go back and see them because they are on the boards that run USSC and are making those decisions. They are not being made by the Minister of Health. They are made by the people he is supporting in running the USSC board. A week ago he comes here, or two weeks ago, and he argues that we should not centralize control, we should leave the delivery in the hands of those corporate entities. He should go back and ask them why they are making those decisions.

Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Will the Minister of Health acknowledge part of the problem, even with the appearance of giving in to a certain degree in terms of the regional board making the ultimate decision, is the fact that that position in itself is appointed? When will we see an elected regional board? Then maybe Manitobans can feel somewhat comfortable in the sense that it is not going to be a politically driven decision based on this particular government's philosophical beliefs.

Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, the member for Inkster talks about philosophy and politics in running a health care system. We spend over $1.8 billion a year to deliver health to Manitobans. Surely to goodness, whether it be hospitals or government, we have an obligation to ensure that we deliver high-quality service as efficiently as possible. From time to time technology is going to change that is going to change the playing field, and we have to keep up with that. That is part of the system.

The member asked about elected boards. I have said in this government we have talked about elected boards. If you are going to have an elected board at some point in time, our legislation provides for that possibility. You would have to ensure it was a universal election, and it would have to come with some taxing authority in order to ensure that there was a direct financial accountability to the voters. So I would be interested in the member's views on that particular issue.

Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): Madam Speaker, the government agreed last Friday that there is a case to be made to scrap the GST on volunteer-run community club programs that keep youth in our province out of trouble. Following up on that meeting, I want to ask the Minister of Justice did he raise this with the federal cabinet ministers that were in town. Did he make the case on behalf of community clubs in our province and what was the federal government's response?

Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, as I indicated, there indeed is a case to be made but I have not heard the case made yet. What I indicated on the record very clearly is that I would be consulting with the Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson) in terms of what the ramifications of this were and we would determine.

I must indicate that I did have a number of opportunities to speak to Mr. Rock on a number of issues, and I think we have made progress in many areas. This is one area that I am prepared if there is a case to be made, I will take it forward, along with the Minister of Finance.

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Ms. Cerilli: Missed a good opportunity to make this case.

I want to ask the minister, drawing his attention to the report from the Youth Secretariat's own working group on gangs which also said that the province should support community clubs in promoting the programs that they run for youth, and I am wanting to see if he will make a commitment that that recommendation by the gang working group will be part of their strategy and their protocol in working towards eliminating the gang increase in crime in our province, and if he will also make a commitment that they will raise the issue along with that for--

Madam Speaker: Order, please. I would remind the honourable member for Radisson that a question is to be a single question, not a multipart question.

The honourable Minister of Health. Honourable Minister of Justice.

Mr. Toews: Thank you, Madam Speaker. You gave my heart a bit of start there, and I certainly do appreciate the time that the Minister of Health (Mr. Praznik) has been on his feet.

I, in fact, am very supportive of the community clubs. Whatever riding these community clubs are in, I think they serve a very, very important function. Indeed, I had occasion to be in the member for Elmwood's (Mr. Maloway) riding just the other day at the--[interjection] That is right. I was at the Melrose Community Club, and there was a cheque that was given to that club for $23,000, an indication of the commitment that this Legislature has in respect of community clubs.

Unfortunately, I did not have an occasion to speak to the member on that date, but I am sure that we just missed each other in the crowd.

Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River): Madam Speaker, barley producers have spoken very clearly on the Wheat Board when they cast their ballots. Sixty-three percent of barley producers have voted to maintain the Wheat Board as the single-desk selling function of barley both for feed and malting barley.

I want to ask the Minister of Agriculture if he will now leave behind his tired open-market ideology--

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for Swan River, to quickly pose her question.

Ms. Wowchuk: Will the minister now speak up and represent Manitoba grain producers and finally support the Canadian Wheat Board and the single-desk selling function that has worked so well for the grain producers of this country?

Hon. Harry Enns (Minister of Agriculture): In response to the honourable member for Swan River, I can inform her that I was pleased to do exactly that just last week to the Standing Committee on Agriculture that was holding hearings here in Winnipeg with respect to changes to the Canadian Wheat Board Act that are now before Parliament. I reiterated my government's support for the single-selling desk with respect to wheat. I reiterated the support that we have indicated on several occasions and that 40 percent of the producers or close to it have indicated their ongoing concern about greater flexibility with respect to marketing. I regret that the question was a black or white, either/or question. It would have been very interesting had it been otherwise. Madam Speaker, it is going to be interesting to see how the Canadian Wheat Board will accept the vote.

There was a time some time ago where the old adage if it ain't broke do not fix it worked. That is not the situation in the new world today. The new world is changing, markets are changing and I hope the Canadian Wheat Board is taking the message from that vote in precisely that way.

Ms. Wowchuk: I would like to ask this government how they can sing praises of the Wheat Board when they secure an excellent sale during the trade mission and then begin to split hairs and say, well, yes, but the Wheat Board has to change and we have to look at dual marketing.

Will this minister commit that he will support the grain producers since the majority of them have said they want single-desk selling of barley under the Wheat Board?

Mr. Enns: Madam Speaker, I defy the honourable member to on any occasion find whether I or any other member of this government has indicated anything but support for the Canadian Wheat Board. What we have persistently claimed is that the Canadian Wheat Board must be adaptable to change. That is what we have claimed.

I would invite the honourable member to make herself more conversant with the positions taken by my department, by myself, by my Premier (Mr. Filmon) on this issue, on such issues when we address the recommendations of the panel that was appointed by the federal government on the Canadian Wheat Board and most recently of the position that I put forward on behalf of the government to the Standing Committee on Agriculture.

Ms. Wowchuk: I would like to ask the minister why he cannot even say the words "single-desk selling."

Mr. Enns: Madam Speaker, what I can tell the honourable member is that just as late as two hours ago, at noon, a senior member of the Canadian Wheat Board took me aside to indicate to me that they will be having a meeting with our government. They have listened to our presentations on such things as value adding. They will ensure that wheat grown in Manitoba can be milled in Manitoba at competitive rates. That was their position and nothing has changed, and that provides jobs in Manitoba and those are the kinds of changes that the Canadian Wheat Board will have to undertake.

Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Environment): Madam Speaker, last week, the 20th of March, the honourable member for Swan River (Ms. Wowchuk) raised questions during a press conference and in this House. Two days previous she had received information from my department that the waste material in question was nontoxic and nonhazardous. Two days before she had a press conference to lead us to believe otherwise. The honourable member used a videotape to make her point and described 10- to 40-metre-high piles of wood bark and fines in length of a couple of football fields. She has yet to tell us where that particular location is where she videotaped that.

Madam Speaker, the honourable member is being unco-operative and mischievous.

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Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): Madam Speaker, I assumed that the minister had taken a question under advisement. That being the case, I have never seen a more flagrant abuse of a minister coming back and a minister who did not know about this matter who has now entered into debate, has not brought facts into this House, as has the member for Swan River. If he spent more time doing his job as Minister of Environment and listening to the member for Swan River and responding to the concerns raised, we would not have to get up, as I have to, on a point of order to say that he is completely out of order. He should deal with the matter raised, answer the questions.

Madam Speaker: The honourable government House leader, on the same point of order.

Mr. McCrae: Yes, Madam Speaker, indeed on the same point of order, how can I or anyone else, including environmental officers in Manitoba, do their jobs when honourable members like the honourable member for Swan River bring forward information that leads us to believe a state of being exists which does not. As a result of--

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. On the point of order raised by the honourable member for Thompson, I was under the impression the minister was responding to a question taken as notice, but I will indeed research Hansard and report back to the Chamber.

Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Swan River, with a new question.

Ms. Wowchuk: New question, Madam Speaker. The minister has just indicated that I did not make contact with his department. I would like to tell him that on February 12, I called his department. When I had the news conference, I identified the three sites.

Will the minister just tell this House that he is completely incompetent and he has not directed his staff to do the right thing and inspect those sites which are on riverbanks in some cases?

An Honourable Member: Just tell us where.

Ms. Wowchuk: Madam Speaker, on a point of order, the Premier (Mr. Filmon) has just asked me to identify the sites. I would like to tell him that the three sites are in the R.M. of Minitonas, and I identified them to the media when I held my press conference.

Madam Speaker: On the point of order raised by the honourable member for Swan River, she does not have a point of order.

Madam Speaker: The honourable Minister of Environment, to respond to the question asked.

Mr. McCrae: Madam Speaker, because of the mischief of the honourable member for Swan River, we have had people, environmental officers running to and fro and chasing geese and all the rest of it to find the spots that are supposedly in breach of the rules as alleged by the honourable member. [interjection]

Well, the department is reinspecting every site. This is the kind of help we are getting from the New Democrats. There is not one site that is being used for anything other than what the department has approved. The honourable member is doing nothing but making trouble and misleading--I take that one back--but the honourable member is engaging in mischief.

The people who work at Louisiana-Pacific and the people in Swan River and in all of Manitoba will see the honourable member for exactly what she is.

Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Swan River, with a supplementary question.

Ms. Wowchuk: Madam Speaker, is this minister telling us that he is so incompetent that we have to tell them where the sites are and that his department is not in control and does not know where the stuff that has been moving from the L-P site is being dumped? They have no control of what is happening in the Swan River Valley.

Mr. McCrae: In a society, when a responsible person makes an allegation, simple good citizenship suggests that information ought to accompany such an allegation.

The Department of Environment asked the honourable member for Swan River for detail, and she refused to give the information that was required in order to properly follow up. In fact, I still do not know. She still has not told anybody, as far as I know, the exact location of the video pictures that she took.

Ms. Wowchuk: On a point of order, Madam Speaker, the minister just put inaccurate information on the record and I ask him to withdraw it. When I phoned the Department of Environment on February 12, I told them where the sites were, and they told me that the inspectors would be out there in the next few days. They did not come out.

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for Swan River does not have a point of order. It is clearly a dispute over the facts.

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Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Brandon East, with one very short question.

Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): Madam Speaker, certain experienced Brandon mathematics teachers have publicly alleged that the reason the results of the province-wide mathematics exams were poor in some areas of this province was that the exam standards had been raised without adequate and explicit notice. They further observed, however, that some divisions did have explicit information because their teachers were on the exam development committee.

My question to the minister is would the minister ensure in future that clear, explicit and direct information is sent to all schools respecting province-wide examinations.

Hon. Linda McIntosh (Minister of Education and Training): Madam Speaker, there are some extremely serious allegations in what the member has just said. There were 11 master mathematics teachers chosen, recommended by superintendents around the province to prepare the mathematics examination. They took an oath of confidentiality. They are practising mathematics teachers, 11 of them, not hundreds. They worked many, many months. They worked against a curriculum. They took curriculum-congruent questions. They had that exam then vetted through a review committee. The exam then came back, was divided into three separate exams so they did not know which exam would ultimately be used in the field. Those three exams were piloted and written by 600 students, marked by teachers other than those teachers. Those 11 then checked those marks to see that the exams were proper and appropriate for the students in Manitoba to write. It then came back, and one of those exams was chosen for writing.

Madam Speaker, that means that if all 11 teachers broke their oath of confidentiality, there might have been 11 classrooms that did better, but all schools were notified in October that this year's exam would be heavy on problem-solving and the weighting of each question was shown.

The member is wrong and his allegation is incredibly in bad taste and unethical.

Madam Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired.