Hon. James McCrae (Government House Leader): I move, seconded by the honourable Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Cummings), that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty.

Motion agreed to, and the House resolved itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty with the honourable member for La Verendrye (Mr. Sveinson) in the Chair for the Department of Housing; and the honourable member for St. Norbert (Mr. Laurendeau) in the Chair for the Department of Natural Resources.

Mr. Chairperson (Ben Sveinson): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This afternoon this section of the Committee of Supply meeting in Room 255 will resume consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Housing. When the committee last sat, it had been considering item 1.(b)(1) on page 83 of the Estimates book. Shall the item pass?

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Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): If I am not mistaken, I think that the Minister of Housing was in the midst of answering my question about the way that the department and Personnel division are dealing with concerns about staff. We had been having a discussion about consultation with staff that is showing staff have a number of concerns, that there is a concern about low morale and lack of training. I was suggesting that this is in turn possibly translating into an inability to deal effectively with tenants and other clients in the department and wondering if the minister can respond to that concern and tell us how the department is dealing with complaints about staff and how many complaints they receive and how these complaints are dealt with and that type of thing.

Hon. Jack Reimer (Minister of Housing): I think that this an excellent way to introduce ourselves to some of the things that we are, in a sense, trying to achieve over at Manitoba Housing in trying to come forth with some new directions and new philosophies over there. As pointed out earlier, one of the first things we tried to do was to try to get the employees and the staff to sit down and to literally give us the shopping list, if you want to call it, of complaints and concerns that they had that they felt we, as management and government, should be looking at and trying to make their job or their work environment more compatible with the goals and objectives that we and they put upon themselves. So this is one of the reasons why a lot of the complaints and concerns were put down. It was shown that we should put it down on black and white, in a sense, so that there is a realization of what the employees are concerned about.

I welcome this type of attitude and this type of direction, because I think it puts into perspective the fact of where we should be making some changes. This was the first time that our department had ever been exposed to that type of philosophy of telling us where the problems are, writing them down. There was no sense of persecution or anything that we were wanting to get back at the employees or anything of that nature. It was a free and open discussion as to where they felt there were problems.

I think it is like anything. If we as a government do not give ourselves the ability to question our employees and ask them to tell us where and how they feel that there should be changes, it is very difficult to build up that type of co-operative movement of trying to bring in new elements of change. So I welcomed the idea of them coming up with a list of complaints, of concerns that they felt we should be addressing. The natural progression from that, as we pointed out, was to set up these committees for consultation and for co-ordination within the working groups. It is an ongoing process where there is ability to move freely through the system of problem solving. I think that, just as there was the ability for them to make suggestions of concern and grievances, there was also the ability for them to list what they felt they liked about the organization and what was positive in their workforce. So just as there is the listing of the so-called problems--

Mr. Chairperson: The honourable member for Radisson, on a point of order.

Ms. Cerilli: Mr. Chairperson, I just wanted to rephrase or clarify for the minister my question which had to do with how the department deals with complaints from tenants with Manitoba Housing about the staff specifically. That is what I am interested in finding out today.

Mr. Chairperson: The honourable member for Radisson does not have a point of order. It is a dispute over the facts.

Mr. Reimer: When the member was talking about complaints, I picked up on where we were more or less involved yesterday in the discussions, but in regard to employee complaints when they come in, I will just have to find out the exact procedure on that--if you can just give me a moment on that.

I was just wanting to get the proper sequence of events as to how things transpire when there is a phone call or a letter regarding complaints. The procedure that is implemented is that the complaint is taken seriously. There is staff or personnel assigned to try to come to some sort of resolve on that type of problem where that jurisdiction or that area where the problem is related to. It is then tried to work to a conclusion with the complainant in trying to come to an understanding or a decision on the complaint. There is also set up within the department an appeal mechanism. If the individual is not satisfied with the decision, there is an appeal mechanism set up, appeal panel, if you want to call it, so that that individual can go one step further in trying to come to a resolve on any type of problem.

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Ms. Cerilli: The other part of my questions was the way that the department logs complaints about staff. How many complaints have been received by the department about staff over the last year and if there have been any trends in increase in complaints about staff, particularly given the fact that we have just discussed a problem in the department of how there are a number of management changes that have occurred? There have been a number of concerns about that in the department, and there are a lot of positions being filled on an acting capacity right now, so I am wondering if the minister could complete this area of questioning.

Mr. Reimer: I have to apologize a little bit for the delay on that because it is a matter of procedure, I guess, in how complaints are handled. The member has asked regarding complaints about personnel, I guess, and the handling of--if I am correct in assuming that it is how we handle complaints that come in from clients or tenants in regard to personnel in management positions over these people.

From information that has been given to me, we do not keep a separate log in a sense of complaints against personnel compared to say complaints against the paint in the halls or something like that or the condition of the carpets in the halls, but it has been relayed to me that if there is a repeated complaint against one particular person, then that person is spoken to by our personnel manager, and management will make a point of trying to find out why or what is happening that there is this abnormality of complaints regarding this one individual. But, as to the categories of how many were against personnel and how many were against the condition of the carpets, we do not have that type of breakdown.

I should add, too, that in pursuing any type of complaint, we do talk to the complainant too so that you get the two sides of the story. That is another way of trying to come to some sort of resolve if there is a problem with some individual.

Ms. Cerilli: The minister knows that I have written him on a variety of occasions about specific instances that are brought to my attention where tenants in Manitoba Housing Authority properties feel that they are being either discriminated against or that they are being treated in a harassing fashion by staff in the department, and on a case by case basis, I guess, we have tried to intervene. I am just wondering if any of those cases and if in any of these instances there is ever something that goes into the file, the personnel file of the staffperson. Particularly in the area of harassment, there is a particular concern. I know one of the cases that I am thinking of that I brought to the minister's attention involved problems the staff are having when the department is trying to place new tenants who are mental health patients into seniors apartments, bachelor suites. That has been one instance where there have been complaints that the staff--and the staff maybe also feel that they are not prepared, they are not trained to deal with the types of tenants that they are having to deal with.

So, just to clarify then, I am wanting to know if in any cases over the last year or the last couple of years there have been instances where a complaint from a tenant or a client has resulted in the information being filed in the personnel file with the Manitoba Housing department or authority.

Mr. Reimer: Mr. Chairperson, in dealing with matters of personnel, it is always of a very delicate nature in a sense because it is very significant as to possibly the career path or the direction that an individual is taking as he or she is trying to pursue a career in our Department of Housing. So we take very seriously any type of allegation that would come forth from a tenant in the sense of some sort of conflict or harassment charge or potential charge, I should say, by a client and one of our employees with Manitoba Housing.

We try to work very, very closely in consultation and with the employee to try to come to some sort of resolve and understanding of the possible conflict that he or she is being perceived to have brought forth by the individual. We would hope that we could work with that employee so it does not come down to a point where, as mentioned by the member, there is a reprimand or a letter put on file against that person. There is always the opportunity to try to work with that person before it comes to that, but it has been reported to me that there have been incidents where there have been notations in the person's file of situations that have come up. As to the number, we would have to go into the files to be specific, but I am told that it is not that common or that regular that this comes about.

The best direction is to try to work with that employee for him or her she to see why there is a conflict, to work in a more consultative nature of trying to resolve the problem before it gets to a point where it has to be a letter of reprimand that is put on the file. As mentioned, it is not that common. The amounts, I have been told, that come to a point where there is a notation in the file are very few and are very seldom.

Ms. Cerilli: I would appreciate the minister getting some of those numbers for me and doing some kind of comparison over the last 10 or so years, even going back that far. On the same vein, I want to find out if the department has an harassment policy, and if I could be provided with any kind of a policy, perhaps coming through the civil service, but then also not just dealing between personnel in the department, but also because of the relationship that many of the staff have with tenants and the nature of that relationship where there is, I think, lots of room for conflict between caretakers and tenants and different staff in the department and tenants who are collecting a rent and arrears for rent, and all those kinds of things. I am wondering if there is a policy that will help guide the staff and if I can get a copy of that policy or if you could describe the nature of that policy here for us today.

Mr. Reimer: The employees that work for our Housing would fall under the general guidelines of the harassment policy for all of the government employees. Our department does not have a singularly different or separate harassment policy as a guideline. The guidelines of the Manitoba government employees and the harassment policies that all employees of Manitoba government work for would cover, you know, this particular sector of our government in Housing.

So I can only say that we do have the Employee Assistance Program that has been set up for our employees so that if there is a problem they have something to refer to, but the general guidelines of practice for the government employees would apply to the employees that are under our sector of Housing.

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Ms. Cerilli: Okay. I might suggest that this is an area where the department would consider some other type of policy dealing with the relationship between staff and tenants just based on the kind of calls that I get. It is also related to the other area I want to get into now which is training of staff through your Personnel division.

I have also had, as I have suggested already today, concerns that staff are not receiving the training that they need in order to carry out their duties, especially with the changing populations that are being housed. The minister himself in his opening statement talked about aging seniors who have a large variety of needs who are living in the housing under his department.

So I am wondering if the minister could explain the types of training programs that are offered through his department for staff and if one of these areas could include more attention to personnel dealing with conflict, dealing with difficult tenants, you know, for caretakers and other staff that are involved with tenants.

Mr. Reimer: In dealing with any type of effective department, you have to have a continual program of training, and it is something that has been ongoing with our department. It has just been pointed out to me, just for example, for the last three years there is an ongoing training program with the institute of property managers, for certified property management programs. There are programs in computer training that we have been involved with. The member is, I believe, concerned about training for people skills, of dealing with--between the management and clients in tenant relations and things of that nature. We do set up training programs in that venue through our human resources department. There is cross-training between various departments so that there is a knowledge of what happens between various other sectors in the department. It is an ongoing program of training. We train utilizing the civil service avenue of getting people involved. There is computer training that is happening, especially with the direction that we are taking in housing with our computer department. There is full-time training; in fact, it has been pointed out to me that we now have a full-time training supervisor that was put on, appointed in late 1996.

These are all some of things that we in the department feel are very, very necessary, to continue with this type of direction, because if you do not have training and if you do not make the opportunity available for people to be trained in some of the people skills--because of the fact that we are a service department. We are there to serve a clientele, and if you do not have those types of skills, we are at cross-purposes of trying to make our objectives.

So training has and will continue to play an even more important role in our department. I think it is very, very important that we continue that type of approach to it. So I feel that people skills and people training can have a significant benefit in our department as we proceed.

Ms. Cerilli: Still in a similar area dealing with personnel, we have talked a little bit about complaints about staff, but I also get people phoning who compliment staff, particularly the caretakers. I know there is one example, and this has been brought to the minister's attention as well, where there is one development where they want to keep their caretaker who is currently no longer, I guess, qualified to continue working as the caretaker.

So I want to clarify, first of all, the policy with respect to caretakers and their requirement to live onsite, and I am also wanting the minister to confirm the number of people employed by the department that are caretakers and, I guess, the ratio of tenants or units per caretaker, and if there has been any change in that area.

Mr. Reimer: The idea of having staff onsite is something that we recommend in a lot of our large units. In some of our smaller units, there is the ability that they do not have to live onsite because of the volume that they have to look after.

Our contention is that if it is a fairly large complex, the availability of the caretaker to be there in case there is a problem is a very high importance that we put on the contact for the reliance and the comfort of our employees--pardon me, of the tenants in the complex. Of the number of caretakers, we have 107 who are staff caretakers and we have 82 that are on contract for a total of 189 in our present complement of housing. So there is a mix of both within that, but our onsite caretakers are something that we are encouraging in our large complexes because it is a benefit to the residents and, to an extent, the security and the maintenance of our complexes.

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Ms. Cerilli: So, just to clarify then, this is 189 staff and contract employees that are working just in the Manitoba Housing Authority public housing, or does this also include nonprofit? [interjection] That is what I thought. But what I was wanting to get at is the policy in this area and if there is policy in this area that guides the department in knowing how big the complex is before they have to have one or more caretakers working there. I am interested in seeing some kind of comparison with the private sector. I mean, one of the concerns is that Manitoba Housing properties do not have the same kind of ratio that there is in the private sector in terms of having caretakers onsite.

Mr. Reimer: We do not have the exact number here in front of us, but we can give you a fairly close guesstimate as to the qualification. We usually insist on, in the large EPHs or the Elderly Persons Housing, that there is a full-time caretaker on. That is a requirement. When units are 40-plus units in a complex, we would want to have a full-time caretaker in a unit like that. When we look at family units, we look at a complement of about 30 units. If we look at some of the mixed units of various types of accommodations, we look at about a hundred units. So those are approximate, but as to the actual numbers, we would have to go through our files and find out exactly which units, which large apartments have the full-time caretakers in them.

Ms. Cerilli: Is the minister saying then that it is a policy that--40 units per full-time caretaker for elderly persons and 30 units per full-time caretaker at the family level, but that is only for the complexes. You know, this is an area of large concern to the public. I mean, there have been problems, serious unsafety, for example, where toddlers have fallen out of windows because screens were not properly maintained, those kinds of issues. The deputy minister is saying that that is not true, so perhaps we can clarify, but I am just trying to draw it to the attention--the importance of this area. Again, I get calls and complaints from tenants that their requests for repairs are not handled expeditiously at times. I have in front of me, based on our discussion from last year's Estimates, a detailed breakdown of the caretakers' responsibilities. I am also concerned about how many of the caretakers that are working in the Manitoba Housing properties are part time.

The other area I am concerned about is for the single-family units or the smaller row houses where there is not a large complex, the availability of maintenance and caretaking in those developments, if there is some type of routine way that that is handled, or if it is simply a matter of having tenants fill out the request form and it goes in a pile, and there is the staff that is assigned to that region and they just have to wait until the staff is able to get there. I am sure that there is some type of prioritization that goes on. You know, if the furnace goes, that would bump up the request in the middle of January. This is an area that I am concerned about, and I just want to have some clarification on what the policy is in those areas.

Mr. Reimer: In looking at the whole area of complaints in regard to the tenants and to their particular units or their particular complex and things like that, I guess you have to bring into context the fact that as the complaints come in, there is a priority set on the emergency and immediacy of some of the complaints. For example, if a cupboard door falls off compared to a fridge going on the fritz, that caretaker or the maintenance people will naturally go to try to get that fridge replaced or restarted or fixed before they go to fix the cabinet door.

There are other considerations that have to come into being too. Sometimes the replacement of certain commodities or certain fixtures or the painting of a certain suite sometimes has to be considered in the overall planning of that whole building or a combination of buildings for the efficiencies of contracting it out on a large basis for the best pricing and also into the planning stages of when we can accommodate a lot of the things that can be done. So sometimes people will put a complaint in on a certain matter and it falls within the area of just the fact that we are looking at replacing it maybe in the short term or maybe in the very immediate future, and it may involve getting an accumulation of some other buildings and look at their priorities and putting it in together so that we can respond in a more efficient way.

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I should point out to the member that even though I say these things, we still have the availability of a 24-hour emergency number. The tenant, if there is something that is of a severe nature, we have a 24-hour maintenance person on staff, on call. During the blizzard of just last week, we had people on staff there to be of a helping nature and, as ever, staff responded in a very commendable manner in any type of situation that was brought forth. It is a situation that I think is very commendable of our department in trying to be cognizant of some of the concerns that our tenants have.

There will always be the situation where people feel we do not respond fast enough or that they feel that the response is not to their satisfaction. I guess it is all in the matter of interpretation as to how it is being done, but we respond in a very judicious manner in trying to come to some sort of resolve with their complaints. It is a matter of them recognizing and the individual recognizing that from time to time the priorities of how their severity of problem is interpreted sometimes will dictate the speed of reaction, but, as I say, if it is of an emergency nature and it happens in the middle of the night, we have people there for them.

Ms. Cerilli: Again, I do not want to spend too much longer on this area, but I just want to ask specifically two things. If we can compare the caretaker-staffing ratio per units with MHA to private sector units the same size, how that would compare or--and compare it as well maybe to nonprofits. Compare it to Winnipeg Housing Rehab.

The other area I want you to just clarify or focus on is in terms of doing repairs. For example, I remember I had one constituent who called me up and insisted I come over to their suite. They lived in public housing, row housing where there were patio doors. They were told that they would just have to make do with keeping the doors shut with a piece of pipe or a hockey stick. The door was completely unable to be locked. The locking mechanism in the door handle was completely off, and it had been that way for quite some time. How much of a common occurrence is that, and how is that explained by the ministry? Is the problem that it is an aging housing stock?

The way the ministers have described it, the emergencies always get put to the top of the list. So there are so many emergencies going because the equipment, the fixtures are so aging that a lot of these other situations that require repairs that certainly cause problems and discomfort for tenants are continually put to the bottom of the list. I wonder if the minister could respond to those two things.

Mr. Reimer: I do not believe we have figures on the ratio compared to the private sector as to caretakers to units. I think we can try to get as much information that we can in looking at the comparison between the nonprofit units that we have and some of the other things that we can have access to. We can try to get that information for the member as a point of information.

The other item that the member mentioned was regarding the prioritization of repairs. I guess that is always the matter of interpretation, as she mentioned this. You do not want certain items to always be falling to the bottom of the list. I would hope that maintenance would recognize that there is a responsibility to respond to all requests in a manner that is cognizant of the individual's concern and not totally disregard the client, or the resident is totally always rejected in his or her request for repairs. Sometimes those are the situations that, if they come to my attention--and I must say, I have not had any type of correspondence brought to me along that venue where there was a continual refusal by maintenance to repair a certain item--that I would be concerned about it too.

I think that if there are incidents like that, they should be brought forth for attention, either through the member or to myself or by the individual. The person has a right to complain.

Ms. Cerilli: Still on the topic then of caretakers and caretaking, I want to deal specifically with this issue at 110, 120 and 130 Markham Road. Some of the tenants there have gone to quite a lot of trouble. I am wondering if the minister is, first of all, familiar with this case. This is where a caretaker had been living onsite and then endeavoured to purchase a house directly across the street from these three housing developments. I believe that he was under the impression that he would be able to continue as the full-time caretaker, even though he was going to be living directly across the street then in a private dwelling. I am just wanting to see how the ministry is responding to this particular situation, if that is their understanding, that he was initially under the impression that he could continue on as a full-time caretaker while he was purchasing the home across the street from this housing development.

Mr. Reimer: I have been informed of that particular situation that the member is referring to. The individual was well aware that the requirement was that he live onsite. That was a requirement. It was made very clear that this was the position that the Housing department had given to the individual. The individual, for reasons of his own, decided to buy a home, as the member mentioned, across the street. The direction that was given to him was that our condition was that he stay onsite.

As to the arrangements that he may have made possibly with the purchase of the home and the circumstances and scenarios that were involved with why he would purchase the home when he knew he that he had to stay onsite, possibly he was looking at, maybe, renting that home to somebody and something happened, and all of a sudden he had to take possession of it. I am not privy to exactly everything that transpired as to why he moved off, what the final reason was. But he was given clear indication that he had to stay on that particular site, because that particular complex warranted having an onsite manager. As to if there may have been extraneous circumstances for him purchasing this home, I can only speculate.

Ms. Cerilli: As I understand it, he is going to continue on as even part-time in some other capacity with Manitoba Housing Authority. Is that correct?

Mr. Reimer: No, he is still a full-time caretaker but he will be, I guess for lack of a better word, floating to various locations. He is still retained as a full-time caretaker.

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Ms. Cerilli: So this is a good example for us to look at in terms of how the vacancies are being filled in the department. I am not sure--if I look at the dates on some of the petitions that I have, it was back in February when this individual was vacating that position as caretaker on Markham Road. So I am wondering how long that position was vacant and what process is being used to fill that vacancy.

Mr. Reimer: I apologize. I was trying to get an update as to that particular location. If the member could repeat that. I am sorry, I apologize.

Ms. Cerilli: Sure. I am wanting to get a picture, then, of the process that will be used to fill that vacancy for the full-time caretaker on Markham Road. Is it filled now? Are you still in the process of having some type of competition for that position? Will it be filled internally from other people in the department? How long has it been vacant?

Mr. Reimer: Yes, I have been informed that what we would do is inform the other union members within our department of the availability of a move to this particular area. If that was not fulfilled or accomplished through that way, then there would be an open competition or a job ad put in the paper for the position, but we would look in all likelihood within through our existing structure and through the union firstly. I believe that there is a caretaker onsite right now. Now, whether he has been permanently appointed to that position, we would have to find out exactly. We do not have our Personnel person at the table here right now.

Ms. Cerilli: I will sort of move on to another but related area. We discussed the other day the number of positions that are being filled in an acting capacity in the department, and I am just wanting to clarify if the minister can tell us a little bit more about the amount of mobility in staff turnover in the department. How many of those positions have been filled through an open competition? How many have been filled through placing someone else who has been, you know, reappointed from the department or in some other fashion, and how many have been filled through an open competition through the civil service?

Mr. Reimer: Specific numbers we will have to, you know, go to our Personnel department to get some numbers for the member, but it has been pointed out that we try to look within in a sense and try to fill positions in that way. We have not had that many. In fact it has been pointed out to me that--I do not know whether we have had any outside hirings in a sense of new people coming in. They have either come through the internal system or through other ways, but, with caretakers, there is a turnover there. I think I mentioned the other day, when we throw in the number of a 15 percent turnover, that is mainly where the turnover is, in that area. That area there, there are open competitions and ads in the papers placed for those positions. Once you start to get into the management or the level of the system, a lot of it is an internal reorganization and redirection of peoples and their skills. As to numbers, I guess we would have to get our Personnel person to come back with something for the member.

Ms. Cerilli: Again, I am just trying to wrap up this area. Still on the topic of caretakers, I know there was an article in the paper the other day from the Caretaker Resource Centre, and this is sort of an offshoot of AIM, the Apartment Investors Association of Manitoba. They had a news release a while ago, and I phoned up the fellow there and one of the things that they are now offering is training for caretakers. I am not sure, but it sounds like that is one of the areas that through your own department you have to provide training in. They are looking at a program, approaching the provincial government Family Services and possibly the City of Winnipeg, I guess as well, of having people on social allowance participate in their program to be trained as caretakers. With the high percentage of tenants who are on social allowance living in Manitoba Housing Authority properties, I am wondering if this is something that the department is aware of; if they are considering looking at some kind of program like this, if that is something they have considered.

Mr. Reimer: We are dealing with an association. The acronym on it is BOMA, which is the Building Owners & Managers Association for the training of caretakers, and this is an association that we feel that we can come to a better understanding and a better working relationship in trying to bring forth training. The association that the member mentioned, I am not that familiar with that organization and I am not sure whether the department is--we are aware of it, but I do not think that we work with them in any type of training programs.

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Ms. Cerilli: Okay, just in sort of wrapping up this whole area of discussing the personnel and Executive Support, when looking at the Estimates page 19, quite a number of the areas in this, what I would call senior management and executive administrative area, have had an increase this year: Transportation, $5,000; Communication has gone up by a couple of thousand; and some of the other areas as well. I am wondering how the minister can explain this. I mean, some of the salaries have gone down, but generally there have been a few thousand dollars increased in this area. It is a concern at the same time where you have made major cuts in programs like SAFER and SAFFR that are going to do the business of what this department is designed to do, and that is to support the housing needs of low-income Manitobans. You are cutting there, and at the same time there is increased Transportation and Communication funds for senior management in your department. I am wondering if part of that transportation is to provide staff to travel to your staff meetings at the Art Gallery or the Norquay Building; if that is one explanation, or how else you might be able to explain these increases?

Mr. Reimer: In regard to the increase in the communication sector, most of that increase relates to the increase in the computerization, the telecommunications area of e-mail and things of that nature of the sophistication of being in touch with our people in regard to their maintenance and improvement programs, responding to emergency situations. Communications is something that is increasing and should be really of an increasing nature in a sense of trying to do the job better.

Transportation, I can assure the member that there were no buses or no taxis paid for in regard to getting over to the Art Gallery for the meeting with the staff. They walked because it was not that far, or maybe they got over on their own. So that amount is showing an increase. I can only possibly attribute the price of gasoline and the price of oil to an extent of going up. If the member recalls, last year or years before, gasoline was almost 10 cents a litre cheaper than what we are paying for it now, and we do have to pay a certain amount of allowance for transportation in there. So it is an amount of approximately, I guess it is $5,000 that it has gone up. So it is amazing how sometimes those little things can add up.

Ms. Cerilli: I guess I will have to accept that explanation from the minister, but it does seem odd to have that much of a transportation budget increase. I think I said yesterday that I had heard concerns, particularly in the rural areas, about the way that the regions have been reorganized, that maintenance staff in particular are having to do a lot more travelling and running around than they used to under the former structure of Manitoba Housing Authority. That may be something that the minister wants to look into. That would not I guess directly affect the Transportation line in this division that much, but, you know, it is difficult for the department while they are making such huge cuts to programs as important as public housing, SAFER, SAFFR, co-op loan program that they are having these kinds of increases in their department for Administration.

I do not know if the minister wants to add anything there, but I am going to move on now to discussing some other areas.

Mr. Reimer: I was just going to mention, in the transportation area there have been certain expenditures attributed to that line for the consultation with other provinces in some of the effects that are happening with what she is aware of in all the areas of concern that we have for housing. So there would be some added dollars involved with that too.

Ms. Cerilli: I want to move on and ask some questions more about the Finance and Administration area in the budgeting in the department. One of the things, it seems like there are quite a few things added in the Estimates book under Finance and Administration in the description of activities and objectives and Expected Results, and I guess that is what I am looking at asking some questions about here.

One of the things is reviewing the appropriateness of tax assessment levied against the Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation properties and initiate appeals as required--and that sort of struck me after the fiasco in the City of Winnipeg in terms of their Assessment Department--and I am wondering if that has resulted in any significant reassessments and what kind of dollar figure could be attached to that.

I have with me the annual report. It is only the annual report from '95-96, and I am assuming that this is the most recent one that is available. So I am going to be referring to this quite a bit. If the minister can direct me to a line in the annual report that deals with this area of tax assessments, then I would appreciate that. I am on page 35 from that annual report, and I am wondering if that is where I would not expect to find this line.

(Mr. Peter Dyck, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair)

Mr. Reimer: I think what the member is referring to is the appeals process that we are setting up with all our properties in our Manitoba Housing portfolio. One of the things that we have been actively involved with is looking at our assessments. We are of the opinion that if there is a savings to be realized by looking at our properties and the assessed value that has been put on them and that if there is the ability to appeal some of these assessments, that we should pursue it. We have done this.

As pointed out by the member--I can refer her to page 39 of the '95-96 annual report where it does say grants in lieu of taxes, and she can recognize that we have gone down by well over $2 million of a savings in our budgetary considerations. So the appeal process has proven to be of a benefit to the department, and I believe that we are still in the process of appealing some of our other buildings and working with the assessment on those too. This is a conscientious decision that we had taken to try to realize some potential savings.

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Ms. Cerilli: So what the minister is telling me is that the Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation is now saving approximately $2 million annually or $1.5 million in their tax bill to the City of Winnipeg. I just want a little bit more explanation of the nature of what has been involved in these appeals and reassessment. What has led to this $1.5-million or $2-million saving?

Mr. Reimer: This is a very interesting topic because there is a--we work very closely, naturally, with the federal government. The federal government, in their dealings with some of their properties, have become very, very heavy-handed in a sense, if you want to call it that. They have said that they are only going to pay a certain amount of money for their grants in lieu of taxes and more or less said that is the way it is going to be. What it does is it puts us in a position where we have to be very analytical and critical in our assessment of what our properties are worth and the values that are associated with them. This is one of the reasons why we did this reassessment.

I should point out to the member that that saving is for our total--[interjection] Province-wide, yes. It is not particularly for the city of Winnipeg where this is happening, because we have properties all over. It has to be realized that the $2-million savings in this book is shared with the federal government, too. So what you see is not necessarily what you get, because the feds take half of our judicious--[interjection] In our good management and in our proper. So we get dinged for being good managers, and they get the benefit from it. They come along, and they become a flat hand on what we are going to get.

It puts a tremendous burden on our financial analysts in our department to try to come up with a good set of books to work within our parameters of spending. It is a very interesting relationship between the federal government and the province and to which way the feds are going. I know we are going to get into further conversations regarding devolution, and I welcome that part of our Estimates, because I think there are a lot of things that the member for Radisson and I should discuss about this. On this particular item, we do not share totally in that $2-million saving.

Ms. Cerilli: My question, though, is that I want to get a clear understanding of how this $2 million or so was arrived at. I hope I am understanding this correctly where if the amount of taxes you are going to have to pay on a housing property is going to be reduced, that would mean that the assessment on the value of that property would then also have to be reduced. Is that correct and is that what is happening? So actually what we are finding is the sale value or the value being allocated to these properties is being reassessed at a lower amount.

Mr. Reimer: Yes, what has come about is the institution of the ad valorem system of taxation in our province where it is based upon the value of the property in the market. So what was so called built for an example of $3 million, some sort of complex when it was first built, say, maybe about 10 years ago, the only true value on that building right now is what the assessed value is. The only way that you can do an assessment on your building is literally go to that facility, compare it to the market what has been sold so that a number can be arrived at. That is your basis of assessment, and then your taxes are assessed out of that evaluation.

I know the member had referred to very briefly in her opening statements about a drive-by assessment, but what we are doing with all our properties is try to get a proper evaluation on it because it benefits us as a province. If we are going to give grants in lieu, we should be doing it on the property value and the true assessed value--not on the perceived book value of what was first built and how much it cost--and use those figures. It is a tremendous benefit and a tax saving to the people of Manitoba, but at the same time, as I said before, we have to share that monies that we realize. The federal government benefits on a win-win situation out of what we are doing here in Manitoba.

Ms. Cerilli: Okay. I know I have with me the listing of all the properties in the province. I am assuming that this was done across the board for all the--it is not finished yet--but it is including the entire portfolio of nonprofit, sponsored, and public housing. That is correct; I see you nodding. What I would be interested in finding out is which of the properties have seen a reassessed value? I am sure the department has that information. I am not expecting to get that right now, but I would be interested in seeing that at some point and to compare it with some of the other information I have from the department.

Mr. Reimer: As I pointed out to the member, this is an ongoing scenario that we are reassessing. Not only is it something that we will be doing on a conscientious basis this year, but I think that we have initiated a positive review. I am not saying it will be an annual event, but I think that it will transpire as there is a recognition that there is a perceived imbalance. The number of units that will be reassessed--I should not say every one of them will be, because there are some that fall within the parameters of reason when it is looked at not only as the value on our books, but we can recognize what is happening in the market.

Our department will go through the list that the member has and do a comparison. Where there looks like there is truly an anomaly, those are the ones that will be assessed. We will do that. We look at hopefully some significant savings along the way once the assessment is brought up to date on an ad valorem system of what the building is worth. Hopefully through computerization and things like that, you can almost get instant access to certain blocks and certain locations and have a comparison spit out of a computer, very similar to what they do with the Real Estate Board right now where you can do a cost analysis of a home on Chestnut Street and what it sells for. We are hopeful that we can be able to do that within our portfolio to get a good comparison. It is an example of modernization that we feel is well worth the effort.

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Ms. Cerilli: I will look forward to getting that information when it is available to the minister. Further to this, though, I would be interested in knowing--looking at what the minister was good enough to send me from questions I asked last year in Estimates is a listing of the social housing units that are being considered for surplus, being declared surplus. I would assume that these properties would certainly have gone through this reassessment process prior to being put on this list. So I am interested in having that clarified or confirmed that that has gone on and in how many of these properties--I mean, I am working from this list now that is, I guess, a year old, and I will get into a little more detail about this, the changes in this list later.

What I am wanting to clarify now is the properties that are being considered surplus. How many of those have had a reassessed value and if that is something that has been done?

Mr. Reimer: What I can give to the member is we would have to look at the list that the member has there and do a comparison. Individually, I do not think we have the schedule of reassessments and the results of reassessments with us at this particular time, and the comparison would be hard to do. It would be strictly on a speculative basis at this time, so those are some of the things that we would have to look into for the member.

Ms. Cerilli: Similarly, though you have already referred to the fact that you have had to share this $2 million or so with the federal government, you have taken a closer look at monitoring the federal recoveries. I am wondering if there has been any dollar figure there where you have saved yourself some money, if you can tell me what that is, and if that is going to be reflected in the annual report anywhere here.

Mr. Reimer: I learn a lot from these Estimates myself, you know, and the efficiencies of my department; it is amazing how fast they work sometime. I have just been informed that when we find out that there is a discrepancy, we bill within five days to get our share of the federal monies. We do it on a very judicious and a speedy way of trying to get as much as we can and as soon as we can from the federal government. I can tell by the enthusiasm of my financial director there that he relishes the fact of trying to get this money back from the feds as soon as he can, so I encourage him to stay on the fast and speedy track.

There are a lot of ramifications in dealing with the federal government, but I have been assured that we work as fast as we can; if there is money owing, we go after it.

Ms. Cerilli: Well, I appreciate that, and that is stated clearly in the Estimates booklet including that you want to bill them within five days, but I am just wanting to see if you are showing anywhere, or if you can tell me how much more money you are squeezing out of the federal government through this process. I am wanting to go--

Mr. Reimer: It is based upon expenditures. As we are spending our money, we are either billing back to the federal government, because of the various agreements we have, we are either billing back 25 percent, 50 percent or even 75 percent of the expenditures. So it is a paper trail that speeds up as fast as we can in trying to get our money back.

Ms. Cerilli: Another area in that same line is that you are trying also to do the same thing with tenant revenues collections from tenants. I am looking at the annual report from '95-96 at page 38, which shows the revenue from rents. It shows there approximately $44.5 million--it is hard to see if that is a decimal or a period--for MHA and then for sponsored housing. It is comparing '95 and '96. I can see that there has been an increase in the revenue from rent, the total revenue. Now, this is total revenue from rent from '95 to '96.

I am wondering how you explain that because, I think if we also looked at it, we can see, when I also look at the number of properties, for example, there have been in the same period 89 properties that have been lost from the social housing portfolio. We know that over this time there has been a rent increase, rent geared to income, to 27 percent.

I think you can see where I am headed here. I am wanting to do some comparison of, if we looked at the revenue per unit, what are we seeing here? Are we seeing that this is becoming a larger percentage of the revenue from the budget to any great extent? How would you evaluate the increase in this area in terms of the revenue from tenants rent?

Mr. Reimer: One of the things that has to be taken into consideration when you look at rental revenue is the fact that if our occupancy goes up, we are going to realize more revenue. One of the things that we have worked quite diligently at is trying to bring forth--we have units available. Let us try to utilize them. Naturally, if we are renting more units, we are serving more of the need in the community. This is one of the reasons why we would have increased rent. It is not necessarily tied into the fact that we are charging more. In fact we were going to be collecting more because we were filling vacant suites.

I think the member recognizes that vacancies are something that we all try to bring down, because we have got public housing available for individuals in need. If we can fill them, it is going to mean that our revenue collections will go up, but it is not at the expense per se of rentals and the percentage that has gone on. We have stayed fairly consistent. In fact, we have been very consistent in the fact that our rental rates here in Manitoba have stayed at 27 percent for family units and 25 percent for bachelor suites. This has proven to be beneficial. I would rather try to work on increasing the occupancies of our units than try to increase the percentage for the sake of making more money in my rental units.

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We have consistently overall had a vacancy rate of well over 10 to 12 percent, I guess, in all our units but, at the same time, some of our units, our complexes are experiencing vacancies of 25 and 30 percent. Others are right down to nil with very, very little turnover. Ideally, I would like to have 100 percent occupancy in our public housing. That is a tremendous benefit for people in need in the social housing area, plus the fact that it will solidify even more revenue for the sake of maintenance, improvement, and upgrading of our units.

I would rather my staff concentrate on filling the units instead of coming to me with a proposal to, say, let us raise it 1 percent or 2 percent. I know the previous minister was of the same opinion, and that she worked very hard in that same type of direction with conscientious efforts and conscientiousness of government. She takes forth that same type of attitude in her new portfolio that she has. These are some of the benefits of the exposure with Housing and dealing with people that the present minister, after she left this department, she takes forth in her new ministry. These are some of the tremendous benefits that we get out of being Minister of Housing.

Ms. Cerilli: I am actually glad to hear the minister say that. I think we are going to get into discussing it in more detail. Something I have asked before of this government in these Estimates is their strategy for filling these vacancies. I have the list with me, and I know that that is an ongoing problem, particularly in the inner city of Winnipeg. I am glad that his focus is on filling those vacancies rather than continuing to increase the rent geared to income paid by these tenants.

I am still wanting to ask, if we look at 1997 and compare that to the other two figures in the annual report that I have here, what is the rent revenue now this year--separating it out again if you can--or the total Manitoba Housing Authority managed, as well as the sponsored and nonprofits?

Basically, what we are seeing here is that you are getting an additional almost $2 million in rent from low-income Manitobans living in Manitoba housing properties. We know that that is an increase because there are fewer properties and rental units available. I do not think your vacancy rates have improved since then. Basically, that is what we are able to see. Over $2 million in that '96 over '95 year has come from low-income Manitobans' rent for Manitoba Housing Authority.

Mr. Reimer: I have been informed in looking at--for 1997, naturally we are looking at Estimates at this particular time because of the fiscal year, but I would hope that the trend that we are establishing to try to fill these units would continue. I would think that we would look at, at least, trying to match this amount in 1997 to continue this type of trend of filling units and to try to raise revenue this way.

I guess, as 1997 unfolds, we will have a better idea six or nine months or further down into our budgetary year in knowing how it is all transpiring for our rental revenue. I would think that the trend that we have started, hopefully, we can still continue to expand on that type of direction with our revenues. I can only guesstimate at this particular time as to how it will finally come out for 1997.

Ms. Cerilli: Okay. Maybe then tell me what your guesstimate was for '96, and I can compare for myself, if we are going to hit that, if you think that we are going to reach that level. I do not have my Estimates book with me from last year.

Mr. Reimer: In dealing with the budgetary considerations, we do not have that figure with us.

Ms. Cerilli: It is in last year's Estimates.

Mr. Reimer: Yes, we do not have one with us, so we cannot look at it that way. We can get it for the member as to what was the estimate when we were doing the budget at that time.

Ms. Cerilli: I guess what I am trying to get at here in all of this is to try and determine how much of this is attributed to the increase in rent over the years and how much of this is going to be attributed to the trend that the minister is talking about where they are filling these vacancies. I have a concern about the levels of the rent being charged on these properties. We have discussed that before. I can appreciate this is difficult to determine, but you have got an estimate here for $57.5 million. In order to arrive at that, you have had to do some of these kinds of calculations in the department. How are you dealing with this? Then I am going to get into asking a little bit more about the vacancies.

Mr. Reimer: I can point out to the member on page 43, I think we are both looking at that same line there regarding the rental revenue. The estimate is just over $57 million, almost $57.6 million. So it does show again an increase of revenue that we will be looking at. We still have that type of optimism and direction that we can accomplish these types of revenues just by being a little bit more, filling of our units and making it more attractive for people to get into the rental field that we have available for them. It was just pointed out to me that that is where our estimate for 1997-98 is.

Ms. Cerilli: What I am trying to get at is, I am just realizing after I asked the last question, that you have not had a rent increase since 1995. So the big jump--and I do not know whether there is a chart in the annual report that will show this--the increase would have occurred between '93 and '95, when there was an increase by 2 percent in the rent geared to income. What I am finding kind of curious is that, if you are continuing to project these increases in rent revenue, you are not anticipating any additional percentage of RGI. You are actually offloading some of your stock; maybe that surplus is not filled anyway. Then I guess what we should be talking about is this strategy that you have for filling these vacancies.

I have with me a listing of what the vacancies are for the entire province in both Winnipeg and the rural areas. I am wanting to get you to sort of update me on this area then of what kind of progress has been made. Compared to last year then, how many more suites have you filled over the Estimates from last year, from when I got this document?

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Mr. Reimer: One of the things that we have instituted to try to address the vacancy rates in the various units is we have initiated a marketing team. We have two ladies that are marketing our units. They took on, as a task, 601 Osborne Street. I believe it is called Fred Tipping Place. When they went into there, there were 37 vacancies. There are now only three vacancies in that unit. That was done within 60 days, from what I am led to believe. They have just gone over to 125 Carriage Road, and they have filled five units in there. The team is proving to be fairly successful in their endeavours, so we are looking at expanding that marketing team, of going out and looking at other areas of units that can warrant their attention.

These are some of the things that we are doing in trying to make the availability of our units more open for rental. So marketing them and getting them exposed to the people that can use them is something that can be of a benefit to the utilization.

(Mr. Chairperson in the Chair)

As I mentioned, when you look at 601 Osborne, in a 60-day period I guess it was, approximately a 60-day period, renting 34 units, I would think that they are doing a fairly good job for us. Hopefully, we can even do a better job.

Ms. Cerilli: It is interesting. I know, I spent quite a bit of time on this last year in Estimates as well talking about the strategy that is going to be employed. Interestingly, you have developed something. I am curious to find out what exactly they are doing that is new with this marketing team, what approach they are taking. I am also curious to find out how it is you are selecting these two, first of all, and how you have prioritized other complexes for this management marketing team, I should say, to work in.

I have got this list with me that I received from April 30, '96 which has all the projects, I guess, with a 10 percent or more vacancy rate. A lot of these include the big ones--Flora Place, Gilbert Park, Lord Selkirk Park, the ones on Ross and Pacific, that are sort of the larger problem blocks where there is a really high vacancy rate. So, is there going to be a different type of strategy to try and deal with the problems in those vacancies? How is the department going to proceed? I have asked a number of questions there; I will be patient.

Mr. Reimer: I think I will try one at a time. One of the criteria in looking at the marketing team was to look at areas where there was a high vacancy rate, try to work within them and try to fill these units. The team will look almost on a project-by-project area and try to come to some sort of analysis as to where they will move next. It should be pointed out too that under the selection criteria prior, we have changed some of the requirements.

Now, if a person was wanting a one-bedroom unit, and we could not particularly fill that or find that particular person a one-bedroom unit, but there was a two-bedroom unit that was available, we have said, let us utilize that unit and get that person into it, so that we do not discriminate against the waiting and waiting for that person to move in a particular complex, just because he or she only is qualified or eligible for a one-bedroom unit. If there is a two-bedroom unit available, let us get them in there, and let us try to accommodate them so that they can live in that particular area. So we have changed that. That has increased the occupancy rate. I think that it is a common-sense decision. I mean, just because that person under the criteria can only live in a one-bedroom--[interjection] No, a common-sense decision.

If that person, because of his or her situation only qualifies for a one-, and there is a two-bedroom apartment in there, and they are waiting and waiting, let us try to accommodate them. So we have done that too. It has proven to be quite beneficial. It makes for a better relationship with the tenant, because that person then is happier to be in that location, and in all likelihood, he or she is going to prove to be a good tenant for us.

Ms. Cerilli: I think I will take the member for Burrows' (Mr. Martindale) suggestion and deal with these issues one at a time. So you are telling me a little bit more about the strategy that is being used with this marketing team. One of the things is that you have targeted some of these buildings which have higher vacancy rates, and you are offering people two-bedroom units, I am assuming you mean then at a one-bedroom rate.

Mr. Reimer: That is right.

Ms. Cerilli: And that is increasing the occupancy. The minister has confirmed that that is correct, so that is one question answered.

The other part of it, I was asking what are you planning to do next, or which developments are you planning to deal with next? Do you have a list of the ones that have been prioritized?

Mr. Reimer: Other areas that we will be concentrating on are trying to fill vacancies in 101 Marion, 515 Elgin Avenue and also 269 Dufferin Avenue. If we can realize additional savings in these areas, we will also hopefully fill up the occupancy in there. We feel that, as pointed out, as mentioned, regarding the one-bedroom units and moving into two bedroom, if there is no waiting list on those two bedrooms, we are going to move the people in there.

Ms. Cerilli: There are all sorts of questions we could ask about this, but I am realizing that we have to, I think, pick up the pace here a bit.

I am wondering, then, if you have done some accounting to look at the cost that is being incurred from this approach or if you are just considering it is better to have it filled at the lower rate rather than not having it filled at all, and if there are some that you are filling through this approach at the regular rate. The other thing is how it is that the marketing team is identifying the tenants or the prospective tenants.

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Mr. Reimer: One of the ways that this team I referred to is trying to fill up these units is they have become very innovative in their approach to try to fill these units, and I have to give them a lot of compliments on their initiatives. They have utilized such things as a neighbourhood drop in advertising, that there are vacancies at such and such a location. They are working with social workers in the area, making known that there are units available at such and such an address. They have even contacted the Department of Health, letting them know that there is availability of certain units in certain areas. We have put ads, from what I understand, in the seniors' papers, which has proven to be very beneficial in getting inquiries to move into our units. We have also put into the neighbourhood papers an ad with this marketing team. There have been personal solicitations in the neighbourhood by this team in trying to accommodate people to move into the units.

It has become almost a full-court press in a sense of trying to get people involved with moving into our social housing. It is proving to be quite beneficial. As I say, I compliment the teams and the success of it. Now we are looking at even expanding that team. So it shows that there is good initiative there, and we are getting some positive results out of it.

Ms. Cerilli: The last part of my question in that area was the plan then for the developments that are really more complex in their problems and probably going to be more difficult. Perhaps the strategy that the minister has described worked to some extent, but when we look at Lord Selkirk Park and some of those other developments that I listed earlier, that strategy will not be enough. I am wondering, you know, what is the cost to the Housing Authority and the department, of having those vacancies continue over the years for those developments, like Lord Selkirk Park, I think now is almost 50 percent vacant, so I guess again I got a two-part question.

I am wanting to find out the strategy for those kind of areas and if that has been given any attention as of yet and to look at what the losses have been. Someone has actually suggested to me that when there are vacancies in some of these units--and I am not sure if they are meaning with public housing or with some of the social housing, the sponsored nonprofits--the department may not necessarily be losing money by not filling the suites because then they are not having to pay a subsidy. So I am wondering if you can clarify that as well.

Mr. Reimer: I think that the range of question that the member brought up is worthy of a fair amount of discussion in a sense, because I share with her the concern that to have good public housing, one of the very first components and one of the very primary components of it, because we are dealing, to a large extent, with seniors, is the fact of community safety. And, if there is community safety or a sense of safety within a community, seniors will feel comfortable into moving into that area and being part of our public housing portfolio. The one area that the member mentioned, Selkirk Park, there is no doubt about it, that area is going to need some sort of special consideration or certain considerations or possibly even a redirection of how we collect rent or how we charge rent in that area, because it is becoming a very difficult place to fill with people that have got a sense of community. Somehow we have got to work closer with that community in trying to bring a resolve on it, not only in Lord Selkirk Park, but there are other areas that hopefully we do not develop that same type of situation.

I think the member and I share the same concerns in trying to get tenant associations involved with that. I know she and I have had some good discussions on that and I agree with her almost 100 percent in what she has mentioned as to the viability and the direction that should come through the tenants association. We will have to spend more time, I think, in trying to foster that type of climate and co-operation in some of these areas. It may mean that we have to direct our resource person to be more actively involved in recognizing some of the problems there. We have to work closely--I am fortunate that through my other portfolio as Minister of Urban Affairs I have the availability of funding the program through the Winnipeg Development Agreement and the Urban Safety program. We have initiated one phase in Selkirk Park with the community police patrol in there. I think that is a very positive force. I think that that is just one step of somehow we have to build further into that community for the safety aspect and the fact that we can utilize better resources of the asset base in that community. As to the fact that if a unit is vacant it does not cost us anything, there is still a cost in any type of vacancy because of the fixed costs that are associated with those units. I guess it is like anything. It breeds itself into further decay and further misuse. If there are continual vacancies in units, the attitude of living in that particular complex or participation in that particular complex by the tenants becomes less of an appeal.

It does cost us. There is a social cost involved with the monetary costs. I think we in our department recognize that if you have a strong social element in your unit, like as has been referred to in Gilbert Park and in The Maples development, there are no vacancies there. That is only because there is a sense that people want to be in those areas and that they will move into those areas.

Other areas of high-concentrated vacancies, I believe we have to give maybe some added emphasis in any type of marketing and maybe a different type of marketing. At the same time, I think that we can try to overcome those. I look forward to working with the Lord Selkirk Park Tenants Association. Anybody really in that particular area, if they have ideas, my door is open and I certainly would welcome suggestions as to how we can try to accommodate more people living in Lord Selkirk Park. I think that it behooves us to try to be innovative in our approach to getting these units occupied.

Ms. Cerilli: I know that the member for Burrows (Mr. Martindale) wants to ask some questions in this area. I know some of these, particularly Flora Place, which is on the list here for having a very high vacancy rate, is in his constituency. He has been involved with some of the other initiatives at Lord Selkirk Park.

I just want to emphasize, what I am getting at here is, if we can compare the cost to the department in the vacancies at Fred Tipping and Carriage Road and some of the other properties you have listed on Marion where you are going to start trying to fill the vacancies, as compared to the cost of having the vacancies in these other larger, high density where there is a greater number of vacancies, what do we come up with? What kind of picture are we getting?

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Perhaps what you are doing now is, you are trying to fill the vacancies in areas where you are more likely to have success through the kind of marketing approach you have tried now, and you know that it is going to take a lot more money, resources, effort to fill the vacancies at Lord Selkirk Park.

If in fact what is happening is, those are the areas that are really causing losses in terms of revenue and costing you in terms of the high turnover of tenants and all that to the department, should we not be looking at a strategy now that is going to address those higher vacancies, larger complexes? You can respond to that.

Again, I am just wanting you to be a little bit more specific then about the strategy that you would be using with Lord Selkirk Park. We talked generally about having more tenant associations, community groups. I know there have been various proposals to have different kinds of resource centres run out of Lord Selkirk Park. This is an area that does involve, as you have said, community safety issues, a lot of other economic education. It is going to have to be, I think, a lot more involved strategy than what you have used at Fred Tipping Place and Carriage Road.

Mr. Reimer: There is not too much that I disagree with the member. I think those are the same concerns that I know I have expressed to the department in trying to come to some sort of resolve in looking at Selkirk Park. I can only relate regarding the marketing team in the sense that you like to build upon the successes, and, granted, Fred Tipping Place and some of those other places are in a totally different location and locale, but I guess it is like anything.

You build upon your successes. If we can build successes, and we can build a record of achievements, we not only build upon the accomplishments of occupancy, but we also build upon the team of experience and the team of innovation. That is something that I think is starting to come out of this marketing team, the fact that they have been able to point to successes, to point to ways that they have become successful. There is a degree of confidence. There is a degree of forward thinking that they can take forth, take with them, as they start to get into the tougher areas and the more areas that deserve more and more attention, and more hard decisions to be made, or maybe new innovative ways to do it.

So it is a building up of confidence; it is a building up of successes through some of the other areas. We will be approaching the very tough areas that were pointed out, like Lord Selkirk Park and some of the other areas, and try to come to some resolve on it. I would feel very comfortable in working with a team that already sort of got the successes behind it, got the ability to have confidence in making decisions so that when we start to move towards Lord Selkirk Park and areas like that, that these people will be able to come up with some very innovative and creative ways of making decisions. So it is a good process that we started with.

Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): I thank my colleague for giving me the opportunity to ask some questions about Lord Selkirk Development and Flora Place. I have lived and worked in the north end for 17 years, so I know a little bit about Lord Selkirk. I certainly do not blame the current government for the problems there. We know that there is a long history to developments like this and that I believe it was when Paul Hellyer was the federal Minister of Housing that he toured large-scale housing projects like Lord Selkirk and Gilbert Park, and found there were many problems. As a result, CMHC said they were not going to fund large-scale projects like that any more because of the problems. So we are really dealing with a legacy that goes back many, many years, policy decisions that at the time were thought to be good, but in the long run did not work out.

I have heard that originally about 75 percent of the people living in Lord Selkirk were employed, and only about 25 percent on social assistance. Now my guess is there is probably very close to 100 percent of the people on social assistance. It seems to me, or my analysis of the problem is, that I think the problem is RGI, rent geared to income. If people who are on social assistance get a job and their income goes up, then of course their rent goes up. When the rent in public housing becomes higher than what it is in the private rental market, people tend to move out fairly quickly because they can get cheaper, more affordable housing in the private sector. The result is that we have a lack of sense of community and lack of stability and high turnovers, in addition to all the other problems like violence and certain characteristics of the neighbourhood.

I am wondering if you and your department would consider making an exception for Lord Selkirk, and maybe Lord Selkirk and Gilbert Park, on the rent-geared income policy. So, for example, if people's rent did not go up, or did not go up higher than the private rental market, so that they could continue to stay, people could actually raise a family there, or grow old there, instead of having such a very high turnover rate, which I am sure it can be confirmed from your stats and from the school in the neighbourhood, which has a very high turnover rate of students.

I think there would be benefits to the government and to taxpayers. We know, for example, that when children move twice or more in an academic year, their chances of failing are very, very high. Winnipeg School Division No. 1, for example, has a program whereby they hire staff to follow teachers, and take their work from one school to another, so there is some continuity. We know that children who move many, many times experience many other problems in their life, so if we could provide some stability to that community, I think it would actually save the government money. Basically, my question is, would you consider making an exception to the RGI rule for people who are renting at Lord Selkirk?

Mr. Reimer: The member for Burrows (Mr. Martindale) brings up a very interesting and a very excellent scenario regarding the conditions of some of our public housing. Gilbert Park is an excellent example where you have people there that what you are trying to do is create a housing complex, if you want to call it, that will provide not only for the safety of the community, but it also will give the ability for role models to be developed within that complex for people who exceed, excel and become employable and work are not penalized for their achievements. It is that type of role model that will encourage other people in that area, I refer to Gilbert Park. They see the benefits of getting out and working and providing for themselves, and that is something that maybe we should be encouraging more in a way and how we can make accomplishments on that.

We have looked at that scenario, and we have started a pilot project at Columbus Courts where we are looking at, what we call, market rent. I think that this is more or less what the member is referring to if we went to a market rent scenario in, say, Gilbert Park or Lord Selkirk Park, that we can build upon that.

Where my restrictions come in and where I would have to come up with some sort of innovative proposal or project scenario is trying to sell this idea to my federal counterparts, because they are our partners in these units. I think that the timing is right that we pursue this even further. Because of the conditions electorally or what we are faced with right now, this is an innovative way to try to encourage staying in the complex. It also provides an opportunity for role modelling to come about. It also gives the opportunity for the member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) to be part of some of these things, because the Gilbert Park and, I believe, The Maples complex is in his riding where this type of scenario can be of great benefit.

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I have no problems in making this type of initiative to my federal counterparts in a project-by-project basis, because I think that we have a good example in Gilbert Park where we should encourage people of accomplishment, that they are not penalized because of the fact that they cannot compete rent-wise because of our formula. If we can go to some sort of scenario of market rent and there is a willingness by my federal counterparts to recognize what our end product and achievement is in regarding the social wealth and the social benefit of having a stronger and a more vibrant community, we should pursue this even more.

Selkirk Park, if that was the solution to encouraging Selkirk Park to achieve, I think that there is a lot of room for that. The effectiveness of places like Gilbert Park, The Maples complex, some other of our areas are places maybe where it is time we look at those in a pilot project and expand this. So I will take forth the member's recommendation, and I will get the department to look at a proposal or to come up with a scenario. We will make some inquiries to our federal counterparts. It is apropos that the member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) is here, because he should be aware of that type of proposal so that he could work with his federal MP in the area to recognize what we are trying to do, not only in Selkirk Park but in Gilbert Park, so that there is awareness of the scenario that we might try to bring forth.

We have to do something with those complexes. I agree wholeheartedly with the member that we have to do something with that particular area of Winnipeg in trying to accommodate the conditions at Selkirk Park. It is an excellent way to look at it.

Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Yes, Mr. Chairperson, and to compliment the minister, out of all the different ministers, I find this is the one which I compliment the most. I know I was at Gilbert Park earlier today. In fact they gave me a yellow envelope which I am going to provide to you right after the committee. I think that if you were running in Gilbert Park, you might get more votes than me, quite potentially. So heaven forbid you decide Gilbert Park becomes a part of your area, the minister's area. I respect in terms of what it is the member for Burrows (Mr. Martindale) and the minister are saying in terms of the level of income and allowing people to remain in the complexes. If there are some things that I can do, I definitely will. I can assure you that I will be definitely working with Judy after the next federal election--

An Honourable Member: Whichever Judy gets elected.

Mr. Lamoureux: Whichever Judy it will be, and the federal government to ensure that they have the same attitude that this particular minister has.

I sincerely mean that the minister has done exceptionally well in working in the area of Gilbert Park. That is not necessarily coming from me. As I say, we had a meeting earlier today, and I think the tenants association is very appreciative in terms of the attention that the minister has given that, and I know they do look forward to the continual co-operation into the future. I know from previous encounters with other Housing ministers, even though they have been somewhat co-operative, you have definitely given good attention, attention, I would ultimately argue, that is deserved for an area in which we do want to see people taking more of that management. Having said that, I appreciate the member for Burrows allowing me to just get on the record.

Mr. Martindale: Mr. Chairperson, I am pleased to hear that the Minister of Housing will negotiate with CMHC and see if we can extend the kind of market rent arrangements that are currently in place, I guess, at Columbus Courts and other places on a project-by-project basis, and the minister has agreed to look into it for Gilbert Park and Lord Selkirk. I am wondering if at Lord Selkirk the tenants have been or are being given a more important role?

My understanding of the reason that a lot of units have been filled up at Gilbert Park is because a tenants association was involved in tenant selection and also evictions, and it seems to me, I have been told, that is one of the reasons that they have been more successful in, I guess, getting better tenants and keeping tenants. I am wondering if the tenants association is going to be given that kind of a role at Lord Selkirk as well?

Mr. Reimer: I think that it is very, very beneficial that the more that the tenants association has a direct responsibility for their own community and the direction that they want to take their community in a sense of participation, I am a great believer in delegating the authority to them, you know, and we have delegated budgetary responsibility to Gilbert Park in maintenance and cleanup and other things. It is like anything. You build upon successes. They have shown that they can be successful, and I will continue to do that with that association or any other association.

Mr. Martindale: Mr. Chairperson, in I guess a future Estimates committee for Housing, I will have questions about Flora Place, such as how many vacancies, what the government's plans are, any organizations that you might be negotiating with or have accepted proposals from. So I will just put that on the record and give you a chance to do your homework.

Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. The time being five o'clock, committee rise.