Hon. James McCrae (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable Minister of Highways and Transportation (Mr. Findlay), that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty.

Motion agreed to, and the House resolved itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty with the honourable member for La Verendrye (Mr. Sveinson) in the Chair for the Department of Northern Affairs and the honourable member for St. Norbert (Mr. Laurendeau) in the Chair for the Department of Agriculture.

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Mr. Chairperson (Ben Sveinson): Order, please. Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This afternoon this section of Committee of Supply meeting in Room 255 will resume consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Northern Affairs. When the committee last sat, it had been hearing opening comments from the official opposition critic, the honourable member for The Pas (Mr. Lathlin). Does the honourable member for The Pas wish to continue his opening comments?

Mr. Oscar Lathlin (The Pas): Thank you very much, Mr. Chairperson. I will very quickly conclude my opening remarks.

Yesterday, I believe, I started to say that I regarded the Department of Northern Affairs as being a very important department. I also believe I stated yesterday that, even though it has got a very important mandate in terms of what is listed or what is described in the mission statement, for example, the type of mission statement that it contains and the goals and objectives that it has, I fully agree with except that on the other side of the ledger in terms of what is actually being done to achieve those goals and objectives, that is where I have a really serious concern. The budget, for example, has continually shrunk. I believe it was around a little over $20 million when I came around here some six years ago. It is now just barely $16 million.

I regard it to be a very important department because I always viewed the Department of Northern Affairs as a cross-reference department for other government departments. For example, whatever is happening in the North, or whatever Highways might be doing up north, I guess I could say it would probably be that the best way to do any kind of work by Highways, for example, might be to co-ordinate everything through Northern Affairs. The Northern Affairs department works directly with the communities, NACC, and therefore they have a pretty good knowledge. They are very aware, or are supposed to be very aware, of what is going on in communities. So they are in a position to say to government as to what is needed for developing further those communities, as it says in the mission statement and in the goals and objectives. So I view the department as being very important.

I want to finish off by saying then that it has been two ministers now that I have had to deal with as a Northern Affairs critic. I would like to say at this point that I want to be optimistic, that having a new minister in Northern Affairs will mean that we can look forward to some positive changes, that it would mean that the mission statement and the goals and objectives contained therein will actually mean something instead of just nice words that are there and they do not get acted upon and in the end nothing gets done. The Department of Northern Affairs shrinks to the point where it would no longer be feasible to have a Department of Northern Affairs.

So I guess I want to tell the minister that I want to be positive, and I want to tell him that if he is going to be working in partnership, as he seems to tell us, I am all for that; I will support that. But also, on the other hand, I have been elected by the people who live in our riding to represent their interests, and a little over 50 percent of The Pas riding is comprised of aboriginal people. I know that in the Department of Northern Affairs, the NACC, the majority of those communities are in The Pas, Thompson, Flin Flon and Rupertsland, and I have a good chunk of them in The Pas riding. So from time to time I will be coming to the minister by way of correspondence or through direct questioning in the Chamber on issues that are being put to me by the constituents of The Pas riding, and just because I am saying here this afternoon that I want to be positive, it will not in any way prevent me from taking a hard line on issues that I believe are very important.

So with those comments I guess we will continue. My colleague Eric Robinson will be joining us here momentarily, and he will be asking the minister some questions as well. So I would like to thank the Chair for allowing me to finish that part of our work here, and I look forward to--I think we should be finished with the Estimates for Northern Affairs here today if things go well.

Mr. Chairperson: We thank the official opposition critic for those comments. Under the Manitoba practice, debate of the minister's salary is traditionally the last item considered for the Estimates of the department. Accordingly, we shall defer consideration of this item and now proceed with consideration of the next line. Before we do that, we invite the minister's staff to join us at the table, and we ask the minister to introduce his staff present.

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Hon. David Newman (Minister of Northern Affairs): Maybe while the staff is coming forward, I know Mr. Lathlin indicated yesterday that he proposed having an open kind of dialogue, and then at the end of the day, proceed with the passage of the line by line in Estimates. I endorse that request and am pleased to engage in a dialogue with the member and any of his colleagues who wish to participate in the process. I welcome that kind of approach.

I would like to introduce my staff, my Deputy Minister Michael Fine, who will be leaving for a meeting shortly but will be back and forth this afternoon; Jeff Polakoff, who is Assistant Deputy Minister; Oliver Boulette, Assistant Deputy Minister; Harvey Bostrom, who is the Director of the Native Affairs Secretariat; and Rene Gagnon, who is responsible for the financial side of Northern Affairs.

Mr. Chairperson: We thank the minister. We will now proceed to line 1.(b) Executive Support (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits, on page 111 of the main Estimates book. Shall the item pass?

Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Chair, we are going to have an open discussion initially and then, after, the passage of those lines at the end. Right?

Mr. Chairperson: As information, this is just a procedure. You can, indeed, and you have agreed. Both the minister and yourself have agreed to a free-ranging discussion, so just proceed.

Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Chairperson, the first thing that I wanted to ask the minister is: I know I asked him a question some two or three weeks ago regarding the Cross Lake First Nation. It is an issue having to do with northern flood. It is an arbitration issue that I talked about some two or three Estimates ago, maybe a couple of Estimates ago, whereby there was a decision made by the arbitrator, previously, in favour of Cross Lake First Nation for the installation of a vehicle bridge--I do not know which channel now of the Nelson River, the east-west channel, one of the channels. The Hydro or government or whoever subsequently appealed the decision by the arbitrator.

I understood, towards the end of the Estimates process at the time, the former Minister of Northern Affairs advising us that he had just received a letter that afternoon, that it appeared that negotiations were going to continue, and that there would be some resolution to that issue in the near future. Of course, that is a couple of years ago, I think.

Now I understand there was another decision that was made. I do not know if it was a second arbitration decision, or whatever process was used, but I understand another decision favouring Cross Lake First Nation was made. Again, although I understand the decision did not say clearly, directly, that a bridge should be built, I think the decision was made saying that it had something to do with the definition of an all-weather road. According to the arbitrator's review or findings, indeed the winter road was not--I do not even know how to put it, but in any event, somebody somewhere along the way decided that this was not a permanent road and that there needed to be a permanent road, so therefore the bridge was going to be built.

I wonder if I can ask the minister now--because at the time that I asked him the question, he had not seen or read the decision--whether he had read it and where the department is going to be headed in terms of any action that might come about as a result of that decision.

Mr. Newman: Just to respond directly to your question after I do a clarification of the record just to get the sequence and dates right. It was in 1993 that the Northern Flood Agreement arbitrator determined that the respondents, Canada and Manitoba, had not constructed an all-weather road at Cross Lake as contemplated in Recommendation 25 of the Lake Winnipeg, Churchill and Nelson River Study, which was "that an all-weather road be built connecting the Cross Lake community road network with the Jenpeg access road."

The issue of damages arising out of that determination was to be determined at a subsequent hearing. The subsequent hearing was on November 26 to 28, 1996, and Cross Lake requested that damages be awarded that would equal the payments made by Cross Lake to Highways and Transportation for extended hours of operation from 1995 to '97. The arbitrator made a decision, and the decision was to provide compensation based on the failure to complete an all-weather road, and the damages settlement would be determined by the difference between the amount of benefit that an all-weather road would have provided and the benefit that the road as constructed has provided. It is not clear what the value would be for, quote, the difference between the amount of benefit that an all-weather road would have provided and the benefit that the road as constructed has provided, end of quote. Manitoba has filed an appeal of the arbitrator's decision on April 9, 1997, based on a matter of law or jurisdiction under 24.34 of the Northern Flood Agreement by stated case.

All of this is proceeding at a time when the Northern Flood Agreement negotiations are proceeding, and my hope frankly is that all of this will be resolved in one package without this being an isolated kind of legal issue.

Mr. Lathlin: Last week I was going through some Hansard trying to refresh my memory on that particular issue, and I read in there where I stated to the minister then that I was afraid that this issue would be chased back and forth between the different courts. I stated that I did not know how long it was going to take; but, judging from what I knew then, I sort of made the prediction that it would take a long, long time, because each time that a decision was made, either through arbitration or through the court, Hydro or our government, the provincial government, would keep appealing. Then, of course, pretty soon everybody would get tired. People would run out of money, and the issue would not be settled.

I see now from the minister's response that is exactly what is happening, and it is too bad, because as he says the negotiations are ongoing and could be one of the stumbling blocks to an agreement being reached. I hope not. I hope it can be resolved before that.

So I guess that answers my question, like, the government has appealed it once more. Is it the government or Hydro?

Mr. Newman: The Province of Manitoba.

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Mr. Lathlin: Perhaps I can ask the minister then, Mr. Chairperson. He said on a point of law that an appeal has been made. I wonder if I can ask him to explain why that decision is being appealed, if he would explain that to us.

Mr. Newman: Essentially, the primary reason for the appeal is that what could happen by virtue of the way the award was expressed and given that we are negotiating the comprehensive implementation agreement, there could be a possibility of double compensation. The unfortunate thing is you cannot go to the arbitrator, who happened to be G. Campbell MacLean, and ask him what was intended. You have to really go to a court given the nature of the relationship.

Of course, this is one of the reasons we have this implementation agreement process so that we are not spending as much time on arbitrators and lawyers. Once we get the total implementation agreement concluded, hopefully this kind of way, clumsy way, expensive way and formal way, of determining intent will be replaced by another approach, an approach based always on agreement.

The specifics of the grounds of appeal, for the record, are that the arbitrator appeared to ignore largely the background reports which had been presented in evidence. In the opinion of our legal counsel, these reports show that the principal consideration of the writers was that the effects on transportation into and out of the community would be addressed, especially the effects on transportation of cargo into and out of the community. Other factors were considered, but in respect to the opportunities associated with the construction of a road, not because the road constituted compensation.

The other ground is the arbitrator did not consider the settlements or the claims relating to the other issues, including fishing, trapping, culture, employment and others. Settlements in these claims and the proposed comprehensive implementation agreement are intended to address compensation in respect of many adverse aspects, effects of the project, so that the road may not be compensatory in that context. Those were the specific expressions by our legal counsel of the basis for the appeal.

Mr. Lathlin: Could I ask the minister then, as far as he can see, what time frame are we looking at here, because, as he has pointed out to us, the first decision was made in '93? This other one was made just within the past month, I guess, because it was just given to me probably three weeks ago--two weeks ago? If the appeal is being launched, has it been done already? If so what kind of time frame are we looking at? Are we looking at approximately the same time as, let us say, from '93 until the spring of '97 again, four years?

Mr. Newman: I do not think that, being a lawyer, I would even be able to ever project what it would take in terms of time in order to have this matter come to a conclusion. I do not have that information. Even if I asked it of our legal counsel, I do not think I would get an answer which would be useful.

My understanding is that this item is isolated from the negotiations. That is the technical, legal question, so it is not going to delay the conclusion of the negotiations. The time frame is not as significant as it would be if it were an impediment to achieving a finalization of the Northern Flood Agreement and modifications.

Mr. Lathlin: I suppose that is why I am asking the minister, given his experience--he is a lawyer himself--what would be his best guesstimate I guess in terms of how long it would take to go through a second appeal before a decision was made?

Mr. Newman: Once again, when you are in the legal process it takes two parties to move things ahead. If there is a will to move expeditiously, the courts will usually try and accommodate that within their time frames, given all their other priorities. So it simply is dependent on not just us as government but the other parties involved.

Mr. Lathlin: I wonder if the minister would like to elaborate, Mr. Chairperson. He says this appealing decision after decision is separate from negotiations. Then I think earlier he said that we do not want to double compensate. I wonder if he can clarify that for us. How is it separate and what does he mean by, we do not want to double compensate?

Mr. Newman: The arbitrator of course is not privy to everything that is going on in negotiations, so what was in the arbitrator's mind when he used the words he did to make his award are unknown to us. So all we can depend on is the wording that is there, and if that wording, in light of the broader knowledge and deeper knowledge that we have as a party to the negotiations and the band has as a party to the negotiations is different. Unfortunately the only way that you can get something meaningful to determine what the arbitrator really had in mind within his jurisdiction is to have the court involved. As slow and sometimes cumbersome a process it is, it is at least civilized; it is a very reliable process with integrity.

So I believe that isolating this kind of interpretation issue does make a considerable amount of sense. This is in no way a tactic. It is strictly a way of determining what the intent was of the award and what the jurisdiction was of the arbitrator to make the determination under the powers given to that arbitrator by the agreement.

Mr. Lathlin: Maybe as a last question, on the issue of Northern Flood, I would like to ask the minister to give us a picture or describe to us as to where exactly the Northern Flood communities are, particularly those who have not agreed to any kind of settlement yet. I am thinking about Norway House, Cross Lake, and even those who have agreed to settle already. For example, where is Nelson House at, and Split Lake? Is the minister satisfied that whatever was agreed to in the settlement is going satisfactorily, the agreement being implemented, the settlement being implemented? From that extreme to the other one, I understand that particularly one band is not quite ready yet to go to a type of settlement that this government has been proposing to the affected First Nations.

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Mr. Newman: I am advised that, with respect to the signed agreements with York Factory and Split Lake and Nelson House, from all accounts they are operating well, and we are pleased with that result. I am advised that one matter that has not yet been tried is the resource co-management, York Factory. The committee has not met yet, but that is up to the community to determine when that would take place.

With respect to Cross Lake and Norway House, the terms of those agreements have now been substantially agreed to, and we have even made advances pursuant to that accomplishment as per our framework agreement with respect to that. So, from all accounts, we are making very good progress, and we are very pleased with the co-operation that we are receiving from those bands in terms of reaching a final result.

Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if I can ask the minister to be a little more--I am not asking for minute detail, but I was hoping that the minister would be more clear. I am asking for a clarification after all. "We are making progress" does not exactly tell me anything. My question had to do with, for example, are you at a point where you are talking about signing a memorandum, or are you talking about principles? Are you at a point where the First Nation is being asked to have a referendum? Where are you, for Cross Lake and Norway House?

Mr. Newman: I can be more specific to the extent that I can say all substantive issues, we believe, have been agreed upon, and it is now a case of just putting in legal language the wording of the final, formal agreement for formal signing purposes.

Mr. Lathlin: So can I take it, Mr. Chairman, from the minister's comments that what he is telling us is that Cross Lake and Norway House have agreed to comprehensive agreements?

Mr. Newman: Yes.

Mr. Lathlin: I would like to briefly go on to another area here, and then I believe my colleague the member for Rupertsland (Mr. Robinson) will be asking some questions as well.

I would like to talk about Northern Affairs. Earlier I tried to make the minister understand that I view Northern Affairs as being a very important department. I have never been able to understand why it has got such a huge mandate, and yet it is a very small department. I believe that Northern Affairs is capable of, yes, facilitating human resource development, community development, but, at least since I have been here, I have not seen too much of that.

You know, we talk about NACC. Even at one point here I was asking the minister as to how training funds are administered. After much going back and forth, I was able to determine that the communities themselves had very little to do with the managing of those funds. Everything was done either from Winnipeg, Dauphin, Thompson or wherever the offices are located, because I was comparing the Department of Northern Affairs to the way the Department of Indian Affairs was doing business with our First Nations, where they operate on a contribution agreement basis.

The goals and objectives are outlined in the agreement--this is what is to be done for this amount of money--at the end of which an accounting will take place to ensure that those monies were spent on items that they were intended to be spent on.

So the money from the Department of Indian Affairs is devolved to the First Nation. The First Nation has a plan as to how they are going to use the money, and they manage it themselves directly, because I guess at the time that I was asking that question I was wanting to make myself believe, or maybe I was wishing, that that is the way this department was operating. That is to say, in program areas, money is devolved to the communities. They spend according to their plan approved by the department, and then it gets accounted for at the end of the year with the report coming to the Department of Northern Affairs. Unfortunately, that is not the way it is being done. It is being done by departmental staff almost on everything that goes on at the NACC community.

It was my belief at that time, and I made it known to the minister then that to my way of thinking--and I have been involved at a First Nation level, The Pas Band--that is not how you develop individuals in that community; that is not how you develop those communities to become eventually self-sufficient and self-determining, autonomous and deciding things for themselves eventually. You can only achieve that by giving more decision making to the communities. Yes, they are going to make mistakes. The Pas Band made more than one mistake when we first started out, but after many years of determination, training, hard work, it paid off.

I guess that is what I thought would be happening in Northern Affairs as it pertains to our aboriginal people who are Metis, who are not First Nations. So that is why I was saying earlier, Mr. Chairperson, that I regard the Department of Northern Affairs as having the potential to play a bigger role than it is playing right now.

I want to move on to the office in The Pas that I understand was supposed to be closed and not closed and people were being reassigned. Again, at the time that I was discussing that issue with the minister and with others who are directly affected and also from a couple of the communities that I visited at the time, they were concerned that, well, who is going to help us now? Who will come down and give us a hand type of thing, referring to the people who were about to be laid off or moved on to Thompson? I wonder if I could ask the minister to maybe give us an update as to what is going on with the office in The Pas, whether in fact people have been relocated, laid off or reassigned. If they have been reassigned, to what positions?

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Mr. Newman: I will respond to that specific question after I comment on the remarks you made with respect to the mandate and also the importance of the department and also about the way you see these communities moving towards more self-sufficiency and autonomy.

First about the mandate. I agree with you. I feel very privileged to be responsible for a department that is of so much importance to such a large proportion of Manitoba's geography and such an important part of our multicultural population in this province. There are some very special features about our north country which distinguish it from even rural Manitoba, as it is more popularly known. The way that this department is designed and positioned takes that into account. That is why this department is now one of the departments responsible to work with and guide the Children and Youth Secretariat, and Doris May Oulton from that secretariat is here today. If there are any questions directed in that connection, I will invite her to the table.

So that is one important position. That, of course, is Health, Education, Family Services, Justice, Culture, Heritage and Citizenship, Housing and our department, so it is seven departments that influence decision making with respect to children and youth in the province and help to develop policy. So the North and aboriginal people are represented in that in a very specific way, and that has become a very important avenue for policy development.

Also, I chair the Native Affairs Committee of Cabinet which has on it other departments like Justice and like Industry, Trade and Tourism, Natural Resources, Family Services, and I think I said Justice, as well. So the opportunity is there for me as the chair of that committee to create the agenda for that committee and also to bring to the table issues of importance to the North and to the aboriginal community in the province.

Another committee that I serve on by virtue of my office is the Human Services Committee of Cabinet, and that exposes me to the ministries of Education and Health, as well as Family Services, Justice and Culture, Heritage and Citizenship. So, once again, there is a broad picture and an opportunity to participate in the policymaking through that means.

Because the North has all this diversity and you have to look at it in a complete way, it is no accident that I also serve on the Economic Development Board which, along with ministries like Industry, Trade and Tourism, Rural Development, Highways and Agriculture focuses on economic issues. So the North is well positioned in this ministry on a whole variety of important decision-making and policy generation bodies, as well, of course, as being at the cabinet table itself. So I think the positioning is representative of the significance attached to this department by this government.

With respect to your comments about evolving, how do you evolve healthy, sustainable and more self-reliant communities, I think that we can have a very useful and constructive dialogue on that issue because our thinking is not very much apart, and it sounds like there could be a lot of good dialogue between us, not just at this table but outside of it.

I share with you that I view you, as the representative for The Pas, and Eric Robinson, as the representative for Rupertsland, as the elected representatives for the region which forms a large part of the North country, and several other of your colleagues also happen to be the chosen representatives. In all cases of representatives from the North, regardless of party stripe, you are service providers, and I want to work together with you in providing an enhanced service to the North. I want ideas and problems of the northern community to continue as you conscientiously have in the past to be brought forward, so that we can address them. I will treat them as seriously as every other communication I get in good faith from people in the northern region. You have very significant roles to play on their behalf, and I look forward to working with you in a very constructive way to serve those interests.

Just a little bit more about the direction of this department, there is no question, regardless of what might have been said in the past, that we are on a more focused and concerted effort to work in the kinds of ways you are talking about; that is, encouraging more community decision making and equipping them to make informed decisions in that respect. I see us as very much through Mr. Boulette's leadership in the North working with those communities to help them emerge with more capacities to make decisions and take responsibility for more management.

As you may know under our new approach, the best measures kind of approach, we as a government are very anxious to develop ways and means that will enhance the process of what you have called community development. We have been working at that with our management people and will be working with the communities themselves and with staff at all levels to come up with a plan that fits each community.

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I am looking forward, as I say, to having your input as we go along, because I am sure that on behalf of the residents in the North whom you have an interest in representing you will be there to assist them in letting their views be known to me. I will take them very seriously, because we want to do the right thing to help these communities ultimately achieve a level of autonomy which I would describe as being an incorporated community status. That is really when you make a decision to take responsibility. I think when some of the communities do that and are ready to do that and have developed the capacity to generate some revenue and have assurances about the future and not having a diminished importance in the eyes of our government, that we will have a movement in that kind of direction with enthusiasm.

I hope with your help that there will be some excitement about this, and the positives of this will be looked at because it appears to me that we may be in agreement that to the extent that they achieve more control over their own lives, they are going to be healthier and happier. If that is so, we are indeed able to work together toward that kind of objective.

With respect to The Pas office, the current status of that--and I will be very specific because we have had exchanges in the House in Question Period about the facts, so I can build on that and give you the current update.

We have four people from The Pas office directly affected by that decision. The first individual, as I described in the House, the regional director has moved to Thompson, and as far as I am aware, that is seen to be a positive opportunity and, in fact, a promotion. With respect to the secretarial position in The Pas, that individual is now employed in The Pas for the Department of Natural Resources.

With respect to the two other positions in The Pas office, both of those individuals, as I indicated in Question Period, continue to work in The Pas out of the provincial building there, the lease having expired; we let it expire at the Otineka Mall. Those two individuals have been given the accommodation I described in Question Period to make up their minds as to whether or not they want to transfer to Thompson or not to perform the same or similar functions, because everything is changing to a certain extent, but to move to Thompson, and my understanding is that their opportunity to finalize that decision is September of 1997. If they opt not to, they will be laid off or re-employed. If there is another opportunity within government, they will be put on the redeployment list, as I understand it.

Mr. Lathlin: Perhaps it would be a good time for me to ask the minister in terms of rationale behind that decision to--I do not have any problem whatsoever in not renewing the lease at Otineka Mall. I mean, that is not my problem at all. Two weeks ago, I was in conversation with the mall management there, and they are scrounging around for space as they are all completely filled up. I do not think they are looking to--they do not have any more space to lease. In fact, they are leasing space in the town, I was given to understand. So it is not a matter of objecting to the fact that the lease was not renewed.

My issue at that time was what rationale did you develop before deciding to relocate, well, potentially four people to Thompson when, in fact, if a staff member were to travel from Thompson to The Pas to perhaps go and do some work in Moose Lake or Easterville or Grand Rapids or even come further south, say to a meeting in Dauphin, that perhaps it would be more costly in terms of travel expenses and time spent on the road, whereas if the people were stationed in The Pas--hell, 40 minutes, you are in Moose Lake, and you do not have to spend anywhere overnight, probably pack a lunch, go to Moose Lake. It is not all that costly. The same thing with Easterville, Grand Rapids or if you are coming down to Barrows. All those communities are within--like, you do not have to go in overnight.

In fact, if you had two or three days of meetings in Barrows, for example, you could commute from The Pas quite easily. It is only about an hour, an hour and a half from The Pas one way. To have that staff member travel all the way from Thompson to Barrows, yes, you have to be on the road more. You may have to overnight somewhere, thus costing more money, so I was just interested in what rationale or what thinking went on behind those particular decisions.

Mr. Newman: Again, this I think allows me to dialogue with you about the philosophy, the vision of this particular department under my ministry. The vision behind that decision is that the role of the department is essentially to empower communities to the extent that empowerment results in them taking on more responsibility and the civil servants in the department performing less functions, because they have now been assumed by qualified community members or employees of communities or contracted services for communities. That is considered to be a success. That is considered to be an achievement.

You had commented in your opening remarks about the diminution of the department. There is no question that the fact is that the department, between 1984-85 through to the beginning of 1997, had diminished the total department workforce by 44 percent over the 12 years. The local government area itself had diminished from approximately 100 to 101 staff in '84-85 to the mid-40s now, and that is a decrease of 54 percent.

That is probably a measure of the amount that the communities have assumed in terms of responsibility. The major decrease is in positions or in management, technical and trades kinds of categories. You sort of raised the question, does this mean the department is shrinking and you are wondering whether or not it might disappear.

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The department, as I envision it, will be functioning in different kinds of ways, and that is in more facilitation roles, more training roles, more empowerment kinds of roles, more liaison with other kinds of other department kinds of roles. I see a real and very significant function being performed by the staff in this department. I think, as the attitudes are changing about the role, there will come an increasing excitement, because this is I believe the new kind of civil servant, a civil servant that rather than just being there to be of service in a continuing way, the community in ways will be performing more advisory functions or, broadly saying, empowerment functions.

They will not be doing as many services themselves. They will be training community members to employ or engage individuals or companies, contractors, to perform services that have traditionally been performed by the department, and this kind of evolution has been taking place over the last 12 years, and even before that, and will continue, but at the moment I see the importance of the individual staff members in playing those kinds of roles as very positive things and things that are going to be very enriching for people performing those kinds of jobs. Just for example, our recreation function was a term employee, for example, who is now going to be permanent staff, and that person now has a broader mandate which is not just recreation but is really a health and wellness kind of function, broader than just recreation, a new vision in how you go about building healthy sustainable communities. I think that is all I will say at this point.

Mr. Lathlin: I do not want to belabour the point, but perhaps the best way to illustrate this, Mr. Chairperson, is to tell the minister the story about The Pas Band.

You see, in 1969-70, I was still in high school and just finishing off high school. I visited our band after having been away for awhile, and I was told there was a band office. So I went to visit the band office because I was interested. It was a little two-bedroom, bungalow-type house where the chief worked. I saw the chief and there were three other people working in that office. I cannot remember, I believe one was a gravel manager, and the other one might have been the band administrator and the other one a secretary; four people working in that little office. So I was asked to go and see the chief, and the chief told me all about his operation, a big operation, as he called it. Their annual budget was something like $12,000 a year.

An Honourable Member: Was that Gordon Lathlin?

Mr. Lathlin: Right, and that was in '69-70. He showed me around the office, and he was so proud of it, but, you know, when you put it into perspective, that is only 27 years ago. That is not a long time.

So, when you look at The Pas Band now in terms of how it has been able to develop its people, the business and economic development that goes on in that community, that happened in a span of, like, 27 years--27 years, okay?

Now, when we are talking about NACC and the Department of Northern Affairs, I appreciate what the minister is saying, to empower the community so that it can be self-sustaining in time, but the group that is facilitating this human resource community development business, economic development, like what happened in The Pas.. If you are shrinking, would there not be corresponding growth to community level if all this devolution is happening? For example, if you laid off 55 staff people, would that not somehow be translated into growth at the community level? Would that not somehow be translated into more community-based decisions being made at the community level, much like what happened in The Pas? After 25 years, 27 years, should we not be expecting more results from such people, community development work? That is what I was getting at. If you are shrinking staff and if you are now only $16 million, would there not be a corresponding increase of money being spent at the community level? Would there not be more people working at the community level? But it is not.

Mr. Newman: Do you want me to address that? Maybe I could address that. Sorry to interrupt, Mr. Lathlin, but I just thought because you have come to a conclusion which is not, I believe, an assumption that I would regard as a valid one--my information is that in 1974 we had zero employees in the communities themselves, that is by the mayor and councils in those communities, and that now we have 165 employees employed in the community.

My belief and understanding is not only has there been that kind of direct employment, but in some cases there are contracted services done directly by those communities with the support of the Northern Affairs department. That is the perspective where I am coming from, and I thought I would share that at this time so you might not walk down a path that is based on an assumption different than I have. If you want to discuss the assumption, I might stand to be corrected.

Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Chairperson, I have to ask you for a big favour. An issue has just come up that Eric and I have to discuss by ourselves for about two or three minutes. I wonder if the Chair would allow us.

Mr. Chairperson: Is it the will of the committee to take a five-minute recess, 10-minute recess?

Mr. Newman: A 10 would be satisfactory.

Mr. Chairperson: Okay. The committee will resume in 10 minutes.

The committee recessed at 3:40 p.m.

The committee resumed at 3:56 p.m.

Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. We will resume the Estimates of Northern Affairs.

Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Chairperson, I am not quite sure if I understood the minister on the last part--because I was handed a note here, and I decided to read it at the same time--where I talked about in a devolution process. I have had experience in that, you know, working with the Indian Affairs and working at the band level, being chief of our band for about six years and being staff there for several years--where there is downsizing on the government side, and we had to make sure that whatever was downsized would hopefully translate into either person years or program money at the band level and that is how we were able to do it. So that is why I mentioned, when there is a decrease on the departmental side, should there not be a corresponding growth whether it be person years or program funds at the community level. The minister talked about assumptions, but I could not really understand what he was trying to say. So perhaps I could ask him if he would reclarify for us.

Mr. Newman: I was talking employees, employees of the department on one hand and the diminution and relating that to the increase in employees of the mayor and council of the different northern communities. I would even enhance that because the policy, the approach that we are working on is that healthy communities are the product of individuals having more control over their own lives and more participation in their communities so that they influence the decision making which affect their own lives and destinies.

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The fact that in 1974 we did not have mayors and councillors in these communities and now we have 315 elected mayors and councillors in those communities, I believe, is another measure of the progression, the evolution towards the more self-reliant and more healthy communities that I am talking about. I also would use as another measure of the kinds of progress, if you want to use dollars, is that the budget for Northern Affairs in 1969 was $567,000.

So what is the appropriate measure for the progress of the communities? I can say that we are looking at, and I have asked my department to look at benchmarking kinds of mechanisms or measures so that you have goals and then you have ways of measuring progress towards those goals for those communities, and those measures are the kinds of things our Children and Youth Secretariat has become aware of and, I think, has developed a certain amount of expertise and certainly accessed a lot of research. It is the sort of research that grows out of the population health kinds of disciplines, and we want to apply those kinds of measures to those communities on a very long-term basis. So we are looking toward, hopefully with generally acceptable criteria, measuring progress toward I think the sorts of goals that probably, from what you have said, you and I would have in common for the people in those areas.

Another point in terms of dollar measures is that we have maintained our annual capital expenditures at the $2.6-million level for those communities over the last three years, and the operation and maintenance budgets have also been maintained over the last three years.

So I offer those as other kinds of measures of the sort of thing we are talking about. If I still am not responsive to your question, I certainly welcome continued dialogue on it.

Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Chairperson, I thank the minister for that clarification. Yes, it is that kind of progress that I would look at. You know, if I was in charge of Northern Affairs, there would be a clear mission statement and attainable goals and objectives, and at the end of each year I would be interested in sitting down with staff as to what was actually achieved and what was not achieved, and if they were not achieved why did we not achieve, and so on and so forth.

Even, for example, you downsize on the departmental side. I would be interested in knowing--because I know for our band, again, when we started out 27 years ago the unemployment rate at the band level was like any other First Nations community, 80, 90 percent. I do not think we are now as high as 80, 90 percent, but still high, meaning that we have a long way to go yet, but at the same time I know how many people we employ. We employ close to 350 people at the band level, just by ourselves. In fact, I think our band is the second largest employer in The Pas area, second to Repap.

So when you talk about those kinds of statistics and benchmarks and progress, then you know what you are talking about. Over those years that Northern Affairs has existed, for example, how many jobs were there when we first started, and now when you look at all the NACC communities, how many full-time jobs are there, because when I go into a community I visit with the administrator and I ask questions. Sometimes you find an outreach officer, CIC outreach officer, in some of those communities, and I am able to get--you know, Stats Canada does not go into Indian communities when they do unemployment stats. They just go to Thompson, The Pas, Flin Flon, and so I am always interested in knowing what the unemployment situation is like when I go into a community.

Would the minister have any idea of how many people are working as a direct result of Northern Affairs operating in that area? What would the unemployment situation be like? Thirdly, that 21 percent cut that was made by the government to social assistance, I wonder if the minister has an idea as to what impact that 21 percent social assistance cut may have had on those communities.

Mr. Newman: You will be pleased to know, given your preliminary comments to your question, that we are indeed establishing a mission for the department and a business plan, so not only will I be able to hold my department accountable, but you will be able to hold me accountable for my department, and I am pleased that you share that accountability approach to the way you do government. Hopefully, it will mean that we will make more measured progress, and when we do not, change our approach.

With respect to the measure of jobs, I, again, would agree with you that is an excellent measure of success, given the policy of our government believing that working at a real job is far better than being dependent on welfare or government. To that end, we have a number of programs to address what is a disproportionately significant unemployment rate against the norm in the broad picture of Manitoba in our Northern Affairs communities.

What are we doing to address this unemployment situation? That, of course, is why we have the Partners for Careers program to make sure that those people who make the investment in time and effort to achieve graduation from a high school or from a community college or university will get jobs; I mean, the very discouraging thing to the hope of people if those people who make that effort are not successful.

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So that is why we focus on them, and then they become role models and can go back and say, yes, if you do stay committed and work toward achieving that sort of level of education, you will have the ability to achieve meaningful careers.

That is what Partners for Careers is all about, and as you know, that is federal-provincial, multidepartmental. It is Education and Training and my department that are involved in funding that and the federal government, but it is also a partnership with the employer community out there, and the training will be delivered by aboriginal training agencies. So that is one way.

The other kinds of things that we are doing to move people off welfare and into jobs are a top-up program in conjunction with Family Service, and that is our Employment First initiative which we have had in place in our northern communities. We are very pleased with the success of that kind of initiative.

We also, in co-operation with major employers like Hydro when there was, I might say, a very excellent kind of public-private kind of partnership or public-public partnership, Crown corporation-government partnership, when it was determined that, through I think it was a 10-year payout, at what would have been enhanced diesel fuel hydro rates, and you paid those towards electricity, that could pay for the implementation of hydro lines to Thicket Portage and Pikwitonei, which are two northern communities. So a very creative initiative resulted in an opportunity to put a hydro line through, which is going to increase the health in the community, the ability to generate employment in the community, and the actual clearing of the rights-of-way led to jobs for both of those communities over the past while. I was there and was able to share in the pride that the mayor of Thicket Portage, for example, felt in that they had a significant number of people, and in many cases families, out working and putting the line through.

There is also employment, as you know, in the North Central power line process, and there is also, through the generation of entrepreneurship and people achieving the capacity to provide contracted services to northern businesses, that employment is generated. I know I am always pleased to hear the stories that come out of the Communities Economic Development Fund, another area of my responsibility, and their clients who the majority by far are fishermen. They also support in responsible ways, in terms of funding and in terms of management guidance ways, organizations like Moose Lake loggers that provide employment for members of the Moose Lake community and the neighbouring band.

All of the applications that are made for funding to that body, that Communities Economic Development Fund, demonstrate the kind of initiative that results in support for employment opportunities within the communities.

With respect to, have we done a measure of specifics community by community, we do not have that, but, frankly, that is exactly the kind of benchmarking I am asking to be done and developed. I want the capacity to be able to do that, and I want the capacity to be able to measure progress on health, the long-term progress. We have measures of things like diabetes and respiratory illness, fetal alcohol syndrome and effects, all of these kinds of things. I would like us to have the capacity, to measure progress in those kinds of things.

Similarly, with dependence on welfare, I would like to have statistics to show progress in that fashion, and similarly with justice, interaction with the corrections system and the justice system. I would like to see progress in that. I have already indicated the number of employees in Northern Affairs communities, the number of elected officials, and I would like to see more involvement in community activity like justice committees. We have, as you know, an initiative under the Department of Justice in the North now involving $400,000 towards a First Nations strategy. We have 74 youth justice committees in the province. I opened the last one at Falcon Lake, the 74th. I would like to have the presence of those in more communities, Northern Affairs communities, just as I would like to see it on the reserves. So that is the answer that I can give with respect to jobs and unemployment and entrepreneurial kinds of initiatives. Economic development, this government is very big, as indicated by the throne speech, in developing partnerships to do economic development.

I just, again, would share what is the benefit to the North in terms of having our gaming agreements with bands, including Opaskwayak Cree Nation. What are the impacts of our taxation agreements with those bands, because they do not just affect the bands, they affect the communities adjacent to them and some of the northern communities are, and what is good for one part of the North is usually good for the rest. Those kinds of initiatives continue, I think, to bring results. As you know, we have the working committee being established to deal with the interest in expanding gaming in the North. We are fulfilling that commitment as a government with the northern communities, and certainly Opaskwayak Cree Nation is involved in that.

With respect to the changes in Family Services support, I really would defer to the honourable Minister of Family Services (Mrs. Mitchelson) to address that. I would not feel that my staff would have that kind of information at hand, and I would not even invite Doris Mae Oulton to comment on that. I think it is best directed to the honourable Minister Mitchelson when her Estimates come along.

Mr. Eric Robinson (Rupertsland): Mr. Chairperson, I do have a number of questions. I was hoping that we would get the department done today. I am not sure if we will be able to accomplish that because we have other members that also want to raise some questions with the minister on this particular department.

I noted with interest many of the things that the minister talked about in responding to my colleague the member for The Pas (Mr. Lathlin). We have, of course, said on numerous occasions that this department, indeed, is underfunded, and it is one of the more important departments considering the nature of northern Manitoba communities and the high unemployment situation and socioeconomic problems that do exist there and are an every day reality in northern Manitoba. We certainly will undertake the minister's offer to work with us, those of us that represent the poorest region of this province, and we do look forward to that. We, of course, have had the opportunity of being with the minister on a number of occasions at different functions in northern Manitoba, and I commend him for that, for taking an active interest--for example, the northern youth justice conference that was held in Thompson during the Easter weekend.

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I do not think we have ever had a minister that took of his time to sit and listen to the concerns of the young people, the youth of our communities. I also noted that he, being the chair of the Aboriginal Affairs Committee of Cabinet and also the human services part of cabinet, will realize that there are many outstanding issues relating to aboriginal people in this province--the AJI, of course, the Hughes report, the recent tabling of the Royal Commission on Aboriginal Peoples in late 1996 which calls on more innovative ways to work with aboriginal people in Canada, not only in reserve and northern communities but also in urban communities throughout Canada, so, no doubt, we would like to embark upon a bit of a dialogue in the next few hours that we have in Estimates on that particular issue.

We also know that there are many positive things happening with aboriginal people. On the other hand, there are probably more negative things happening with people, and, certainly, I think as responsible members of the opposition and critics, we have tried to provide some guidance and direction to the government. The opportunity certainly was there yesterday, if I could refer to the private members' resolution with respect to the AJI, which simply asked the province to table and work out a blueprint for the future in how the AJI could be implemented in its entirety in the province of Manitoba.

I do not think we are that stupid to think that every one of those recommendations can be done in a short period of time. However, it certainly would have given this government an opportunity to develop a plan of action if we are talking about partnership arrangements with First Nations and aboriginal communities in beginning the design, the framework, if you will, the building blocks, in establishing long-term relationships with aboriginal communities in Manitoba in addressing the many longstanding issues that aboriginal people have been faced with in Manitoba.

I would like to begin, Mr. Chairperson, on one very serious matter, I believe, and that is road maintenance in NACC communities, and I refer specifically to Manigotagan. I wrote a letter on April 11, and, of course, I do not expect an answer immediately, but this was again raised with me today.

Two years ago, changes in the process for maintaining roads in NACC communities, of course, changed, and the department, as I understand it now, hires directly with the Department of Highways in getting these contract arrangements with others. Alex Simard, who a couple of members of the staff here are familiar with, in Manigotagan--Mr. Bostrom and also Mr. Boulette will know him--is currently suffering from cancer. On the weekend that we had the big storm in Manitoba here, April 5 to April 8, it put him in an awkward position according to him and other community members that I have talked to.

Mr. Simard is a man that requires close monitoring and is forced to travel to either Selkirk or the city of Winnipeg for treatment. I believe, according to the latest figures we have, there is roughly 250 people in the community of Manigotagan, and they did not receive any road maintenance services for those four days. Now, finally, on Sunday evening the road was cleared in the community of Manigotagan. When a member of the community did call, an individual by the name of Jeff Gordon, asking them to send out a crew, they were told to plow out the road themselves. This causes me great concern.

I would like to ask the minister whether or not there is any leverage within the department to perhaps have some side agreements with members of the community that could deal with a potential critical situation such as the one that occurred on the weekend of the storm.

Mr. Newman: I appreciate the honourable member's letter of April 11 of this year raising that issue, and I had my department check into that. A response certainly will be forthcoming in writing, but this does give me an opportunity to share with you the circumstances in response to it.

Of course, it was well known to all of us that there was a big blizzard at the time and the Highways department could not get to it right away, and to top it off, the grader from Bissett had mechanical problems, as I understand it. The process for, in effect, funding these kinds of maintenance situations that are urgent, of this kind of situation, was changed so that Northern Affairs could transfer funds directly to the Highways department when Highways did the work. Before that time, there was a problem about who, ultimately, would bear the burden for the cost. That was straightened out two years ago so in this particular crisis situation, exceptional circumstances, Manigotagan could have plowed it out themselves or hired a contractor, engaged a contractor to do it, and the dollars being managed by Northern Affairs could then have been used to pay for this being done. So it was an unfortunate situation, but I do not think it is any longer a systemic problem.

Mr. Robinson: I wonder if the minister would just reiterate that. There is some flexibility then, as I understand it, with the contracts. With the contractor being in Bissett, there is some flexibility to perhaps have subcontracts with a member of the community that may have the equipment to, you know, deal with emergency situations like that.

Mr. Newman: My advice is that it is entirely up to the municipality to decide. They have a budget for this, and could make that decision, but in a nonurgent situation, the work is normally done by Highways and it has been for many years.

Mr. Robinson: Mr. Chairperson, how many of the NACC communities are affected by this new process that was introduced a couple of years ago?

Mr. Newman: The simple answer is all of those with roads are subject to that policy, which means about two-thirds of the communities.

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Mr. Robinson: Mr. Chairperson, I want to thank the minister for his response, and certainly I look forward to the letter that is forthcoming on the issue that we raised about Manigotagan. I believe that it is very dangerous, could be potentially dangerous if an incident like that did occur again.

Today in Question Period, and certainly we were not grandstanding; we are very, very concerned about this--and while we are on the subject of aboriginal issues, we have been working with Chief Margaret Koostachin of Shamattawa for a number of weeks now on the housing crisis that is faced by this community. The federal government, last summer, announced a so-called new housing strategy that would meet the needs of First Nations communities and their housing needs in Manitoba and across Canada. The minister is well aware, as well, the 21 percent cuts in welfare to First Nations communities did occur as well, but the federal government did take the advice of not only ourselves and the opposition, but I believe, to a degree, of this government.

However, the welfare dollars were then converted, and it was again reaffirmed by a staff member from the Department of Indian Affairs, with the money saved on the welfare reductions that the housing then would--the housing strategy which amounts to $140 million nationwide, $28 million in the province of Manitoba. When you break that down, considering that there are 62 First Nations communities in this province, what that breaks down to is roughly about 4.5 houses per community. In the meantime, the backlog is roughly 40 to 150 houses in each of these First Nations communities. The so-called federal housing strategy for First Nations communities is nothing. Yes, sure, it could be argued that it is something but, really, when you come down to it, it does not amount to anything.

We, in our work with Shamattawa--and we went to the Department of Indian Affairs, were able to negotiate some advances on next year's capital budget, but it was not new money. It was simply, as the federal government has tried to portray it, what the band was entitled to already.

What resulted of course was 12 houses being built in a community, and that was only after some media stories and other things that I brought to the minister's attention during Question Period today. To accompany that, of course, to build these 12 new houses, and Shamattawa being in the location that it is in and only accessible by air, and only having a short winter road season, the province did in fact do the community some justice by allowing the winter road to be extended for a period of time, I believe it was two weeks. The winter road is still being used.

We want to give some assurance to the people of Shamattawa and the hard work that Chief Koostachin and her council have been doing, about the hydro pole issue that I raised today. As I understand it, they are going to pay $1,200, or they have paid $1,200 a pole. This works out to 18 I guess, apparently, and the total amount being $12,600. That is something that the band cannot afford; this is one of the poorest communities in Manitoba. I know that the minister has his own thoughts about the community. Yes, it is a beautiful place. It is a beautiful place to visit. It is one of the most beautiful in fact in the province of Manitoba with the rivers, the lakes, the trees and so on. I know the minister painted a beautiful picture, but try and live there for a month and the impression will be altogether different.

In spite of the beauty of the territory, the fact of the matter is that people still do not have proper water and sewer. This is an added burden, of course. The community cannot afford over $12,000 for hydro poles to be transported to their community

So I want to be in a position with the minister in a good spirit of working together here to be able to assure the community that they will be reimbursed for that amount of money that they have had to pay for the poles. The point I made was that Manitoba Hydro will be getting new customers as a result of this; it is not Shamattawa.

So I think that we should make every effort to ensure that the poles are paid for, are reimbursed to the band who have spent that amount of money in getting the hydro poles delivered to their community.

Mr. Newman: At the outset, let me say that I had the good fortune when I was in Thompson to interact with, in particular, two representatives of the Shamattawa band and one of the RCMP constables from the detachment there whose wife is the postmistress in the area.

I was tremendously impressed with what was obviously the leadership of that band and their participation in that conference, and I might say conscientious participation. They were there to learn, and I am sure they took back to their community many, many good ideas from others of the MKO bands represented there and the Manitoba Department of Justice, people that were there and others who were present, helping each other in coming to grips with their own community's justice problems, and I say small "j" justice problems in the very broadest, most holistic sense. So having said that, I am sure that the chief's overtures through you to address this issue are done with the same kind of effort to lead with distinction and sincerely in the interests of the community.

One of the issues that might be behind all of this, of course, is the dissatisfaction with the federal financial support for housing in all of the northern bands. Unfortunately, during this election campaign, I have been exposed to a number of situations where there is an effort by candidates in that election to address this issue and, depending on the audience, sometimes in a one-sided kind of way.

I am sure that the chief there and yourselves are interpreting through the message that is being conveyed what the realities are, as you have pointed out, but we in our partnership with the aboriginal people in this province do not want to see the federal government ever take advantage of aboriginal people or to shortchange them in terms of their just entitlements or what is fair. It is becoming increasingly obvious to me that we are becoming more and more allied with our Manitoba citizens who are aboriginal people in issues that are growing out of the dismantling process, issues which all Manitobans have an interest in because it means everyone is going to be bearing a bigger burden if the aboriginal people are not given their just desserts under the dismantling process in areas of health, education, family services and including housing, of course.

But, specifically, I will read into the record exactly what I have received from Hydro on the issue you have raised, and I thank you for that question in Question Period. I will give you as definitive an answer as I have, and the issue you have raised is about 21 hydro poles being delivered to the Shamattawa Band by a private contractor. The Shamattawa Band paid the contractor for this delivery and is now asking that Manitoba Hydro reimburse the cost.

I am informed from Hydro the background to this. Over the winter months, Manitoba Hydro staff in Gillam checked regularly with the Shamattawa Band to see if they were planning any construction that would require additional hydro lines to be built. Manitoba Hydro last contacted the Shamattawa Band on February 5, 1997, shortly before the winter road was scheduled to be closed. At that time, the band indicated that they were not planning any construction.

On April 2, 1997, the Shamattawa Band informed Manitoba Hydro that they were building 12 new houses and a water plant would require a hydro line to be built. Although the closing of the winter road had been postponed to ship the construction material, the road had been closed for two weeks before Manitoba Hydro was contacted. There had been no maintenance of the road after it was closed.

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Now I am aware, I was in Thompson when the trucks came through at midnight, I believe it was, most certainly during the Easter break week. That was the last group coming out of Shamattawa, and they had, to everyone's pleasure, made the deliveries there during the extended period of the winter road.

Manitoba Hydro decided to try to deliver the 21 poles in spite of the road having been closed and maintenance not being done. However, the condition of the road had deteriorated to the point that the equipment available to Manitoba Hydro was unable to get through. Manitoba Hydro staff in Gillam informed the Shamattawa Band that they were unable to deliver the poles due to the road conditions. Manitoba Hydro staff suggested that the Shamattawa Band hire a private contractor with larger equipment. It was made clear that if they did this, it would be at Shamattawa's expense. The Shamattawa Band hired a contractor and Manitoba Hydro loaned the contractor the pole trailer. The contractor was able to deliver the poles to Shamattawa.

So that is how the situation stands, and I guess the question I would put back to the chief and council is why under those circumstances would they reasonably expect that Manitoba Hydro should pay for that or indeed, of course, why should the Manitoba government be approached to pay for that.

Mr. Robinson: Well, I can only reiterate what I said. The band is one of the poorest in Manitoba, and perhaps the minister and I will have an opportunity to visit that community at some point in the future. I believe it is a reasonable request.

During that given time that we are talking about, there was some movement of trucks into the community that were transporting in supplies to the community. Again, we commended the province for agreeing to go beyond the deadline of the scheduled date of closure of the winter road, and as far as we understood, maintenance was going to carry on for a couple of weeks beyond that. So to the best of our knowledge, the winter road was still open.

I guess our question is--well, in the meantime, the other trucks are getting through and the band did not secure this arrangement with the Department of Indian Affairs till very close to the Easter weekend, as the minister has indicated. I think, as I said earlier, in good conscience and in good faith, I am simply trying to reiterate what the chief of Shamattawa and her staff have told me. I think that the minister--putting it simply, I am just asking him to act in good faith considering the special circumstances, the special needs of this band, to do what he can to effect perhaps a reimbursement for the community in these unfortunate circumstances.

Mr. Newman: It would seem to me that this might be a special case that could be made to the honourable Member of Parliament Elijah Harper with respect to this situation. I know that, for example, when you deal with priorities, there is a conference planned for Winnipeg for April 21, 22 and 23 supported by the aboriginal community and also by the federal government. I know the original budget was something like $700,000 or more, and it has now been apparently pared down to something that is significantly less, and I commend the organizers for doing that. I would hope that if there is a good case to be made that Mr. Harper and his colleagues would be approached to try and have the federal government, who has this direct relationship with the band in this kind of situation, to do small "j" justice to what you are presenting as a very compelling situation.

It is cases like these where I would hope that you, as members of the Manitoba Legislature, and being the alternative at this time to government as the official opposition, would help the people of Shamattawa and the chief and council understand how we are trying with our limited resources and prudently on behalf of taxpayers to invest money as well as we can to carry out our responsibilities. I would hope and expect, properly presented, that the federal government, whoever they may be at any given time, would operate in the same way in relation to their first instance direct responsibility to the Status Indians on bands in this province.

We will work very closely in co-operation always with the federal government on issues for the benefit of members of the aboriginal community, whether they are on reserve or off reserve, whether they are Status Indian or non-Status Indian, or Metis, or call themselves just northerners or Inuit. We must, however, do it in ways that I think are consistent with our clearly defined responsibilities, and sometimes to do otherwise will not make the appropriate participants in partnerships live up to their full responsibilities. So I would hope that we can be allies in addressing this issue and getting a solution to it but from the government that is directly responsible.

Mr. Robinson: I am not quite sure what the minister is proposing. I want to refer him to an incident that occurred with a fire at Wasagomach where a couple of members of that community, trappers, lost their cabins and all their equipment. The minister of government affairs, who sits with us here this afternoon, was kind enough to look at it as a special circumstance and affecting a good number of people, after some persuasion on our part towards him, and he did come through for those people in the Wasagomach community. I am asking the minister the same thing here as part--yes, the federal government has indeed made their contribution in the form of money and allowing the community to purchase the supplies and the needed equipment to construct 12 new homes in advance of this year's capital budget. So in good faith, to show that Shamattawa people are Manitobans and they count in the Manitoba community, I am asking the minister outright here if he will just simply, yes or no, reimburse this community the cost that it has picked up for transporting the poles into the community.

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Mr. Newman: Well, I can, without any equivocation at all, say that under the circumstances that I have heard, I would not recommend that my government support that, nor do I have any budget to support that. But let me just indicate along the lines of what I suggested earlier as to how far we have reached, and in special situations will reach, to accommodate unusual situations that fall through the cracks of jurisdictions. There was a program which grew out of the Indian and Metis Friendship Centre dealing with solvent abuse, and it was a program that was funded by the federal government for two years. My understanding on all accounts was that it was a very successful program. I think Susan Sinclair was the co-ordinator of that program. About the middle of March she came with a whole host of representatives from the Indian and Metis Friendship Centre community and the organization that had mounted this initiative and asked if we could facilitate a solution to a denial of continued funding, to their surprise, by the federal government.

(Mr. Mervin Tweed, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair)

They thought they would have continuing funding for five years, although that might have been an expectation, not a contractual commitment. When the project looked like it was going to fall apart and all of the work that had been done would not be able to be systemically placed into a system so it would be ongoing through schools and other agencies to educate youngsters about solvent abuse, we communicated with the federal government through the Privy Council office to see whether or not they would, at an official level, take a look at this situation. My understanding is they are still looking at the situation, but in the meantime we looked at providing some funding in the interim so the program would not die. We had no obligation to do that, but it was a program that our Children and Youth Secretariat evaluated as having merit. We saw it, through our Native Affairs Secretariat, as a meritorious program. If the federal government commits to continuing funding, we will be prepared to provide some sort of bridge support to allow it not to die and the people leave and be laid off and so forth.

So those kinds of special situations where there is sometimes a bureaucratic vacuum or lack of attention or there is time required, we want good programs for the benefit of women and children and others who are at risk in the aboriginal communities, to be perpetuated and enhanced and we are working hard to do that through collaboration. But this particular situation, it would seem to me that I wish you would direct the same energy you are directing at me now in the Legislature at Elijah Harper in his forum and perhaps use the same public means to do that. I really think that between you and me we could let him know that this is clearly something that they should be responsible for, given the case you have presented so far.

Mr. Robinson: Mr. Chairperson, yes, I have been on the case of the federal member of Parliament for that area, and as a matter of fact, we have had extensive exchange of letters on that particular community and other northern Manitoba communities with respect to the issue of housing.

Mr. Chairperson, allow me to pose this then as an offer to the Minister of Northern and Native Affairs and I as the critic for Native Affairs for the opposition: that he and I write a joint letter to the federal Indian Affairs minister, again taking into consideration some of the points that the minister has made and we co-sign this letter and show that there be some reimbursement of the expenses that have been incurred by this band with respect to the Hydro poles by the federal government.

Mr. Newman: That is the kind of approach that makes good sense to me, and I would have Harvey Bostrom of the Native Affairs Secretariat analyze, in discussion with the chief and council there, what the circumstances are and get a direct understanding beyond what we have been advised by Hydro. If you want to draft such a letter, that could be the starting point, and then I could have Mr. Bostrom start right away to do the analysis in anticipation of the letter. Then I am prepared to jointly sign a letter with you to the extent that we consider that that is a meritorious approach to take for the benefit of the members of the Shamattawa Band.

Mr. Robinson: Certainly I have a lot of confidence in Mr. Bostrom, and certainly we have a wealth of knowledge about the circumstances at Shamattawa. I could direct Harvey to one of our staff members who could probably jointly develop that letter in the next several hours and hopefully get it out of this building in the next 24 hours, I hope. So I would like to leave it at that.

Mr. Chairperson, another issue that I would like to raise with the minister relates to a concern that was raised by Chief Bill Traverse of the Jackhead First Nation with respect to a letter that he received from a Dave Simms, a manager of fish loans regarding--I guess it is more the tone of the letter that deeply concerned Chief Traverse and also members of the community about the CEDF program, and he attached one letter that was received by one of the treaty Indian commercial fishermen in that area. What Mr. Traverse's contention is, Mr. Chairman, is that this letter appears to be threatening and discriminatory and is causing serious concern in the community, and I am reading directly from the chief's letter to the minister. He further goes on to say that Mr. Simms's highhanded approach is totally unacceptable and unnecessary. I do not believe that it is a matter of the band or the community, the First Nation itself, trying to slough off any responsibility about money owed, but given that the area itself that we are talking about is a high unemployment area and fishing is the main industry, and if you are not fishing and if you are not producing, well, obviously then it is going to be a little harder to pay back the loan even though you may be willing. Again, I believe I sent a letter to the minister dated March 19 on this particular issue.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Tweed): It now being five o'clock, I will ask the minister to respond to that question tomorrow.

Mr. Newman: Maybe I could just say, Mr. Chair, that I do have the answer to that question and will provide that to you tomorrow.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Tweed): Committee rise.