Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, I understand, after having major disagreements with the federal government over the last three years, that today the Prime Minister will be announcing a flood compensation policy and package for the province of Manitoba. We are delighted to see this interest in the flood situation in this province, and we look forward to the details of the announcement of the Prime Minister.

It has been indicated to us that the provincial government is putting forward a plan to the federal government, and we certainly would know some of those elements of that plan, having debated them in this Legislature on prior occasions.

I would like to ask the Premier: Can he table Manitoba's position to the federal government in the Chamber, and can he indicate whether we have had any positive movement on the layoffs of flood forecasting staff which are scheduled to take place on August 1, 1997?

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Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, I thank the Leader of the Opposition for his question, and I would indicate to him that ever since the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Cummings), the Minister of Government Services (Mr. Pitura) and I signed the federal-provincial agreement on the 1997 flood damages compensation in Manitoba with Mr. Axworthy, Mr. Young and Mr. Gerrard on the 1st of May, officials have been working towards an agreement, towards an enunciation of the agreement that would lay out the various elements of it.

We have put forward a package that has been agreed to at the officials level of some $270 million. Its basic elements include flood prevention and flood proofing, a business compensation element, an agricultural compensation and reconstruction element and a technical co-operation element, and I will table the letter that I sent to the Prime Minister yesterday that outlines these elements. I can say that we are not certain as to what the Prime Minister intends to do today when he meets with municipal officials, whether he will be in a position to confirm that. I know that he was aware--certainly, through officials, he would have been aware for some time as to the recommendations that were put forward, but at the same time--I have an extra copy here if the Clerk would like to give this one directly to the Leader of the Opposition for his purposes while the other is being registered--it remains to be seen as to whether or not the Prime Minister will be discussing this program clarification or whether he has other agenda items that he wants to discuss with the municipal officials later today, so that is all I can say at this point.

Mr. Doer: Madam Speaker, I understand the press conference and meeting is to take place at the Air Command. Hopefully we can get a reversal on the 762 jobs we lost there, too, but hope springs eternal in these times, these coincidental times in terms of positive announcements, potentially positive announcements.

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, I was pleased to see--a couple of weeks ago we raised three issues that really followed from feedback we received in '95 a bit and a lot more in '96 about the flood victims last year on compensation, and we did some research, as the Premier knows, on the updates that had taken place in other provinces on flood compensation and disaster compensation. The limit has been raised, and we applaud the government for raising that limit from $30,000 to $100,000, consistent with many other provinces. We had also asked about the municipal share and were pleased the government has today announced that they are dropping that from 10 percent to 5 percent. Particularly for communities like Ritchot and other communities, that will present a real threat to their taxpayers, and, of course, other communities in the past in the Parkland region and in forest fires have also gone through similar situations.

We have also raised the issue of the deductible, and I asked the Premier to look at the Alberta policy on deductibles and in light of the depreciation policies. Has he had a chance to look at that, and what is the current status of that situation of a 20 percent deductible for individuals affected by this flood?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): I just want to clarify for the benefit of the Leader of the Opposition that the municipal share remains at 10 percent with a maximum of 5 percent of the municipality's annual budget, which will ensure that there is not a massive requirement on the part of individual municipalities. If it had remained at a total of 10 percent, some of the municipalities such as Ritchot and perhaps even the R.M. of Morris might have been in dire financial circumstances. So this limits their exposure to 5 percent of their annual total municipal budget.

With respect to the issue of the deductibility, I remind the Leader of the Opposition that it was his government in 1986 or '87, under then Minister Harry Harapiak, that changed the policy from a flat fee to a percentage. At that time, 25 percent of the costs were deductible and he, the New Democratic minister, Mr. Harapiak, said that it was in the interest of fairness that a deductible be implemented. That was the perspective that they had at that time, that perspective being based on the, of course, principle that there is some choice involved and that there is some decision making that people make.

He may also know that, in much of the area in which those subdivisions took place in the last decade or so where many of these homes that were the subject of flooding and dispute in the R.M. of Ritchot, those subdivisions were opposed by provincial representatives both in his government's day and in our government's day. Departments of Natural Resources, of Municipal Affairs, of Agriculture, in many cases, opposed those subdivisions for the very reason that they felt that they were in flood-prone areas and that this kind of situation could evolve. So there is certainly some reason to accept the policy that was put forth by the New Democratic government, of which he was a part, that said that a deductible was a reasonable thing under these circumstances.

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Mr. Doer: The Premier will note--and there have been a lot of disasters lately, regrettably, in Manitoba, and there has been a lot more experience with the impact of depreciation, which is applied differently now than before, and the deductible, and it does, for purposes of some people, provide a real hardship. People in Ste. Agathe, I think some of them have resided, their families have resided there before Urban Affairs departments were created or Municipal Affairs departments perhaps were created. I am not sure, but a long time, at least.

Madam Speaker, the Premier's Minister of Government Services (Mr. Pitura) said today that the door was open on the 20 percent deductible. Can the Premier explain--in his press scrum he said that the door was open. I think the public, who is trying to understand what the decision will be on deductible--can the Premier explain how far open is the door on the deductible, and what will that mean for a family who has to replace a five-year-old furnace in Ste. Agathe?

Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, what we have consistently said is that we continue to evaluate the circumstances that people are facing. We continue to evaluate the losses that people are bearing, and we continue to evaluate the various sources from which relief can come, and that includes much of the funds that are being raised by various organizations, including the Red Cross, Salvation Army and so on.

But I want to just correct him to ensure that he does not put on the record anything that may prove to be false with respect to what he says was a change in policy respecting the depreciated value. This is the policy that was in effect--and I know he was quoting from it, but he was only quoting selectively, because this is the policy that was in effect under the New Democratic government that preceded us with respect to compensation for damages under emergency circumstances such as this. It has, under administrative guidelines, No. 10, Amount of Claims, quote, claims may not exceed the estimate of costs required to restore an item or facility to its immediate predisaster condition.

That, of course, supersedes the section that he had been quoting here in this House that talks about major appliances such as stoves and refrigerators which cannot be repaired are eligible; where such appliances can be repaired, cost of repair is eligible; luxury items such as sporting goods, stereos, luxury fur coats, et cetera, are not eligible for federal assistance.

So, at all times, it was a policy of his administration that has continued on through our administration, that it was the depreciated value and not the new value that was the case.

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Mr. Doer: We have talked to a lot of people that have applied the policies, and we are quite confident in what we are saying. I ask the Premier: The minister today said in the media scrum that the door was open on deductibilities. Is the Premier saying in the House today that the door is open, or is he saying it is closed?

Mr. Filmon: Well, as I said in the first part of my response, we continue to monitor and evaluate the circumstances that are being faced; we continue to look at the potential claims that are being put forward. We have, obviously, estimates and figures that people are throwing out without having received bills and submissions. So it is not until we take a look at actual claims and actual circumstances that we are going to be able to refine any policy decisions more than we can today.

Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): Madam Speaker, my question is to the minister responsible for the Emergency Management Organization.

As Manitobans are well aware, Scotia Street, for one area, engaged thousands and thousands of individuals to help place sandbags. For example, on Scotia we estimate about 10,000 individuals assisted in placing almost a million bags over the course of about 15 days, but now the City of Winnipeg, for one municipality, is advising the homeowners to remove those bags and now.

My question for the minister is: In light of the application under the emergency systems program, which includes little tick-off areas for compensation for costs relating to sandbagging expenses and the cleanup of debris left by the disaster, can the minister tell the residents of Scotia Street and other residents of Manitoba whether the compensation scheme includes compensation for a homeowner who contracts privately for the removal of sandbags from property?

Hon. Frank Pitura (Minister of Government Services): Madam Speaker, with regard to the disaster financial assistance policy with the erection of sandbag dikes and then the subsequent removal of those sandbag dikes, I would say to the honourable member, yes, this is eligible for disaster financial assistance. Usually, when the calculation is done with regard to the removal of sandbags, they take a look at the entire size, the complexity of the job and the rates with regard to the cleanup and would indicate to the homeowner at that time what would be the total complexity of the job and what the rates would be for them to get their disaster financial assistance, but the simple answer is yes, they are eligible.

Mr. Mackintosh: Would the minister, who has now said that these costs are eligible, reduce the risk and uncertainty to homeowners and say now what will be the amount of compensation? Will it be dollar for dollar minus the 20 percent deductible, or how will the compensation be determined? They need to know before they enter into what could be very costly contracts with individuals.

Mr. Pitura: Well, I think, Madam Speaker, that anybody who wants to contract for the removal of their sandbag dikes can probably get a great deal of guidance on this by contacting our staff in Emergency Management Organization. Two people I would suggest that could be contacted would be Joe Masi or Mel Nott, our chief claims inspector, for details on that. People can also call our emergency operations centre, too, for clarification as well. If somebody is hiring a contractor for the removal of sandbags, it would seem reasonable that the rates that the contractor would be charging would be competitive with those on any other job, and that is the only really basic criterion that they have to follow in terms of getting this job done.

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Mr. Mackintosh: Would the minister clarify more what appears to be more a loosey-goosey kind of arrangement for individuals? Given that the guideline binder that was provided says that assistance may also be paid to individuals for cleaning up their own property as determined by the Emergency Management Organization, would the minister tell us, in that case, how is the level of compensation decided on? How, in fact, do individual homeowners get compensated for their own work?

Mr. Pitura: Madam Speaker, if an individual wishes to do their own cleanup with regard to the sandbag dikes, it is in the policy, I believe, that, where they are doing their own work at cleanup, in regard to the hourly wage, it is based on minimum wage, and they would also estimate the number of hours, reasonable hours, that it would take. The equipment costs and usually the equipment that is used in cleanup of sandbag dikes would be at rates of those not exceeding the Manitoba Highways and Transportation rates.

Ms. MaryAnn Mihychuk (St. James): Madam Speaker, my question, through you, to the Minister of Health relates to the Grace Hospital. This government has shut down the recently renovated obstetric ward at the Misericordia Hospital, and now we learn the obstetric ward at the Grace Hospital is also being eliminated. This leaves no options for the families and the women in the west end, Wolseley, St. James, Assiniboia and Charleswood areas.

Can the minister explain: Since the rationale for the construction of the new Charleswood Bridge was to allow the people from southwest Winnipeg across the Assiniboine River to reach the Grace Hospital, why is this government now closing this ward which is important to those very people?

Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, I do not know if the member for St. James has had an opportunity to follow this question last week when it was the subject of questions by her colleague the member for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak) and Health critic. As I indicated at that time, the board of directors of the Grace Hospital passed a resolution recommending the closure of this particular ward. Last week, in receiving that resolution, we asked that they not carry forward with it and that this issue be placed with the Winnipeg Hospital Authority so that they can fit in, as they have to make decisions about obstetrical care for the entire city--be placed in its proper context. So we have asked that the Grace Hospital not proceed with that particular decision of its board or recommendation of its board for some time until it can be placed in a proper context which may not result, quite frankly, in the closure of that facility.

It might, in fact, result in its enhancement. We have asked that, and currently we are working with them and with the Health Sciences Centre which may be able to provide some of the additional services that they require to be able to remain open in place, as it takes several months obviously for that to happen, for those types of reviews and decisions by Winnipeg Hospital Authority to take place. So quite the opposite. We are sharing with her the same concern.

Ms. Mihychuk: Madam Speaker, it is indeed good and somewhat reassuring to hear the minister talk about the Grace remaining open. Will the minister please tell us how long he can guarantee the families that the obstetric wards at the Grace Hospital will remain open? How long can we count on those wards being open?

Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, I am not in a position to guarantee anything today, but, you know, the really serious debate in health care today is a lot about how we organize and govern the system. We currently have the hospital wards, which we fund as institutions, and, yes, I admit, Manitoba Health has a lot to do with their decision making, but the board of directors at Grace has made a recommendation.

Now, Madam Speaker, we have a lot of issues to look at in obstetrics, as her colleague has rightly pointed out. There have been a lot of studies, lots of information, lots of work that has been done in that area. There are conflicting points of view. I get them regularly, as the Minister of Health, being presented to me. What I want to make sure happens again in this process is that the Winnipeg Hospital Authority which has, will have as of April 1 of next year, I believe, the authority to make these decisions with respect to programming and has the time to consider the recommendation of the board of governors or board of directors of Grace Hospital in its proper context to ensure that we do not have a decision made today which is going to have to be reversed in a number of months. It is going to take them until the fall, quite frankly, to be in a position to make that kind of decision.

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Ms. Mihychuk: Madam Speaker, my final question to the minister: Will the minister personally take the leadership role and ensure that community hospitals and choices are available for the citizens in the west end, Charleswood, Wolseley, St James areas? Will you take the leadership and ensure that the facilities remain open?

Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, I note the parochialism of the member for St. James, because the real question is not the services to one particular part of the city or the province. It is to ensure that we have an obstetrical program that can account for 12,000 births a year in the whole city and has, as I have discussed with her colleague the member for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak), the right balance between having specialty services and high-risk births and community hospitals. Within that particular mix, each facility--the Winnipeg Hospital Authority is going to have to look at what is the best way to deliver that program for 12,000 births in the city of Winnipeg.

The case that she makes may be a very strong one, and I want to make sure that is not pre-empted by a premature decision of the board at Grace. We are working with them now to ensure that does not happen.

Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): My question is also for the Minister of Health. Madam Speaker, the government's own Action Plan clearly demonstrates that, in fact, the community hospitals do have a larger role to play in any sort of health care reform. The recommendation that is being put forward by the Grace Hospital currently works at 180 degrees from what we believe is important in terms of community health care.

My question to the Minister of Health is: Does the Minister of Health concur that obstetrics can and should be a part of the basic services for our community hospital at the Grace location?

Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, we discussed this last week. I have been discussing it in questions from the member for St. James (Ms. Mihychuk). We have about 12,000 births a year in the city of Winnipeg. I am told that the number that experts recommend for a facility is somewhere, a minimum, between 2,000 and 2,500. The Grace fell below that number.

So obviously one of the challenges for the new Winnipeg Hospital Authority, in adjusting the whole obstetrics program, is to ensure, wherever those sites are--and the Grace may very well likely be a site--that they have enough practice going on in that area to reach those kinds of numbers that make for a very viable facility. Those are decisions and those are considerations that we would like the Winnipeg Hospital Authority to make.

As I indicated to the member for St. James, in speaking with Gordon Webster today, he would expect that he would not be in a position to do that till the fall, and we would hope that he would have sufficient time to do a proper job of it.

Mr. Lamoureux: Will the Minister of Health acknowledge that, at our teaching hospitals, there are services that are there such as obstetrics that could in fact be done in our community hospitals and make a political statement to the degree in which this government is prepared to ensure that obstetrics will continue in the long term at the Grace Hospital? In fact, the government should be looking at expanding it to include the Seven Oaks Hospital.

Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, as I have indicated, from the numbers that I have seen, we have about 12,000 births a year in the city of Winnipeg. Our people advise that somewhere around 2,000, 2,500 births a year is the right number, minimum number to maintain a particular facility, and that is one of the considerations that the Winnipeg Hospital Authority will have to look at. They will also have to look at demographics in terms of where those mothers are coming from in the city. There are changes in population from region to region within the city of Winnipeg over time, and we certainly want to keep flexibility in that system so that it is one that services the needs of the people of Winnipeg, and that is what I would like to achieve.

Madam Speaker, what is very interesting is what makes this possible is a Winnipeg Hospital Authority, which the member opposed just a few months ago.

Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, in response to the member for St. James (Ms. Mihychuk), the minister gives the impression that he is in fact going to wait till the Winnipeg Health Authority makes a decision. Does that then mean that the Minister of Health will guarantee to the Grace Hospital that obstetrics will continue at least until fall? Because that is when he, himself, has indicated is the earliest possible time that the regional health authority can actually make a decision. Will he give that guarantee today so individuals who came to the front of the Legislature--a pregnant woman would in fact be able to have her baby born at that hospital?

Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, I wish the member for Inkster would get it right. The recommendation to close obstetrics is not coming from the Minister of Health, it is not coming from me as minister. It is coming from the board of directors at the Grace Hospital and for a variety of reasons, some of them which are a problem for Grace, that they have lost one of their leading obstetricians. They have some issues around a declining number of births and the efficiency of running that particular facility at less than 1,100 births a year. They have some real problems with that.

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We are certainly taking the view here that we do not want them to follow through on that decision. We do not want the board to close the obstetric wards at Grace. We want the Winnipeg Hospital Authority to work through their plan for obstetrics through the city.

I have convened, through my deputy, a meeting with the Health Sciences Centre that have resources they are prepared to work through to provide. I want to make sure that the Winnipeg Hospital Authority has enough time to make a proper decision, whether it be September, October, November, whenever. They have to have enough time, and that is what I want to see happen.

Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, in all the ramblings of the Minister of Health this morning and the questions I have listened to and the answers, I am not sure if the Minister of Health is in favour of the Grace ward staying open, in favour of closing, in favour of the Winnipeg regional boards or not, and that is part of the problem. Was it parochial when the previous Minister of Health said he would keep the Grace open? Was it parochial when Frank Manning recommended that Grace stay open?

My question to the Minister of Health: If the Minister of Health wishes the public to believe his comments about supporting the Grace remaining open, will the minister commit today that the Province of Manitoba will provide the proper funding and support resources to ensure that Grace Hospital will stay open, the very promise that was made by the former Minister of Health not that long ago?

Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, the question that the member for Kildonan puts, in my opinion, underlines many of the problems and difficulties we have with managing our health care system. What I have said and what I think we are very much committed to is letting the Winnipeg Hospital Authority, that we are charging with organizing services on a city-wide basis, to have the time in this transition year to do proper planning in how they wish to deliver obstetrics, heart surgery, a host of other programs throughout this particular system. They have to have an opportunity to study the issue and come up with a rational and reasonable plan that works for delivering obstetric services in the city of Winnipeg. I believe we will support that plan when it is developed, but it is their responsibility, and we want to make sure they have time to carry it forward.

Mr. Chomiak: Madam Speaker, how can we have any confidence that the new, new plan--there must be at least six new versions of the plan--will have any chance of success when it was just a year ago when the former Minister of Health stood up and said that Grace would stay open, that Victoria would stay open, that Seven Oaks would stay open with their primary and secondary services? Now we have a new plan where some board that is not elected, that has no legislative authority--it has been appointed--is somehow going to make this plan.

Why should we believe this minister?

Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, I am not sure which board the member is referring to, because the board at the Grace Hospital is not elected by the public. They are not even appointed by a member of the Executive Council who sits in this Legislature who is responsible for the vast amount of money that is spent in that hospital. So to use that as some kind of argument against the Winnipeg Hospital Authority I think is very unfair and does not contribute to the debate.

The fact of the matter is, a great deal of work has been done, and there have been many versions of the plan about how we deliver obstetrics. Yes, the Grace obviously has something to offer. That is why they provide obstetrics today, as does Victoria Hospital. What we are suggesting is that a very rational approach be developed by the people who on April 1 of next year will be responsible for this system. I think that is a fair way to approach this, and that is what we are intending to do.

Mr. Chomiak: How can the minister talk about the development of a new, new plan? When the minister conducted a study, obstetric services in urban Winnipeg, a strategic plan for reorganization for the 1990s and beyond, which recommended that Grace stay open on the basis that Misericordia was going to be closed, and the justification for the closure of Misericordia, one of the justifications was that Grace would remain open. How can they now talk about a new plan and have any credibility?

Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, the former minister reminds me from his seat that that was a third option in the recommendation, but beside the point. If there is a very--[interjection]

Madam Speaker, I just ask for some calm to listen to the answer.

Madam Speaker: Order, please.

Mr. Praznik: If there is, and I would agree there are some very logical solid arguments for a future role for the Grace, those are going to work into the considerations and deliberations of the Winnipeg Hospital Authority. We do know a number of things. We have a problem at the Grace today because of the departure of a particular obstetrician. We know that we have a declining number of births in that facility. So, in real practical terms, the Winnipeg Hospital Authority has to look at their obstetrical program from a point of view that is going to ensure that they have enough obstetricians serving the facilities where they are located and that they are using them to their utmost in having enough births there, and how do they make that happen. That is part of the work that they have to do. It is not just a matter of approving money for a facility that is underutilized. It is making sure it is properly utilized, and that is what we want to do in a rational and fair way.

Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): Madam Speaker, it is this government that is ultimately responsible for changes at Grace Hospital, like they are ultimately responsible for changes at Concordia Hospital. Yesterday, May 19, staff changes were to be implemented at Concordia Hospital where all 195 nurses and clerical staff were laid off and all the 43 licensed practical nurses' positions were eliminated. Now these people have to reapply for their positions, including 12 new unit assistant positions.

I want to ask the Minister for Health: Is the minister aware of the new job description for the unit assistants which require these staff, who were formerly clerk-typists, to perform such duties as patient transfers, making of beds with patients in them, assisting nurses in the patient hygiene, patient nutrition, patient elimination and transport, assisting during emergencies, assisting in the care of a body after death?

Has the minister seen these job descriptions, and can he tell us the impact on safety of having clerical typists perform these types of duties?

Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, no, I have not seen those. I suggest she direct her question to the board of Concordia Hospital which is responsible for today governing that facility. You cannot have it both ways. You cannot be supporting the current system that has that level of governance and then hoping to hold this minister or any minister in government responsible for every minute operation of those facilities.

Those particular facilities make even the argument for their continued corporate governance. Let them accept responsibility for their decisions.

Ms. Cerilli: Is this minister saying that he and his department have not approved these changes to health care delivery at Concordia Hospital? Can he tell us that he has not assessed the impact on patient care of having clerk-typists essentially provide nursing care for patients at Concordia Hospital when they have only had eight hours of training, including, what I have a copy of, Concordia Hospital Patient Transfers, a Self-Learning Package?

What is the impact going to be on patient care of these staff changes?

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Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, what is very interesting about this is, with respect to a number of the current boards of facilities in the city of Winnipeg, they make the argument very strongly with me on a regular basis. The Interfaith Council, of which Concordia is a member, make the argument that they are responsible for governance in their facilities. They would like to make those decisions, so, Madam Speaker, they have made those decisions. Let them answer to the member for those decisions.

Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): I would like for the Minister of Health to tell the House what the budget cut has been to Concordia Hospital so he can show that his budget cuts are driving these changes, what is putting the safety of patients and staff at the hospital at risk.

Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, the exchange that the member for Radisson and I are having in this series of questions underlines a fundamental issue in our health care system that is not budgets; it is what level of how do we organize the governance structure of our facilities.

I can tell the honourable member time and time again how many requests we have for equipment--

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Madam Speaker: The honourable Minister of Health, to complete his response.

Mr. Praznik: --from that facility, and when you meet with the physicians who use that equipment, what you discover is, it is not a budget issue; it is how we organize the equipment, because this government has always found the money for services when a strong case could be made across the system.

We will do it, but we cannot--no government can--consider individual requests from facilities when other parts of the system are underutilized. This is what regionalization is about, and this, we believe, is what will solve many of those problems.

Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): Madam Speaker, my question is to the Deputy Premier.

Last week I asked the Deputy Premier what the approval process was for grants under the Canada-Manitoba Communications Agreement, who represented the federal government and who represented Manitoba. The minister indicated that Steven Leahey acted for the province, but he has refused to tell us who acted for the federal government. Would he quit sitting on this information and tell this House who the federal representatives were?

Hon. James Downey (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Madam Speaker, I am not sitting on the information. I said as soon as I had it available, I would provide it to the member and I will.

Madam Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired.