Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, my question is to the Premier. A couple of days ago, the federal government and the lead minister for Manitoba claimed that the federal government did not have a specific proposal from the provincial government. Today we note that the federal government and the lead minister are claiming that the proposal the Premier tabled in this Chamber was, quote, not a proposal but rather a wish list.

Can the Premier indicate to the people of Manitoba whether in fact any of those items on the specific proposal that was made to Ottawa had been clarified by the federal government as "wish list items," and can the Premier comment about whether we have had any feedback at all about the specific proposals put forward to deal with the devastating impact of the flood of 1997?

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Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, I can confirm absolutely that it is not a wish list in the sense that it is the product of three weeks of collaborative effort between senior officials of the federal government and our administration. There was some reasonable clarity put onto the numbers to the extent that PFRA had been working from the federal side to clarify the costs of some of the ring dikes that we know should be constructed as a result of the higher levels than ever before experienced in Manitoba this century and the protective works that would be required to communities who are already requesting it, communities such as Ste. Agathe, such as Aubigny, perhaps the southern part of Rosenort, Niverville, east St. Pierre. They have all been discussing it.

We know that there are certain measures that should be done 30 years after construction to the floodway, and having operated the floodway at close to peak capacity for an extensive period of time, there are some works that are necessary there. There has been discussion of that. The City of Winnipeg has some particular works on its permanent diking system. All of those have numbers that have been attached to them and verified.

I make the point, Madam Speaker, that it is no more a wish list than is the $25 million that the federal government just announced last Friday vis-a-vis the business loss program. The numbers that have been developed are at least as accurate and at least as credible as were developed for the federal government's announcements. So commitments can be made based on numbers that were verified and developed jointly between the senior officials of two levels of government. It certainly was not regarded by the Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council in Ottawa as a wish list but rather the best estimate that officials on both sides could come forward with.

Mr. Doer: Madam Speaker, on May 20 the federal government publicly stated that they did not have a proposal from the provincial government, and on May 22 we heard that the minister did not have a proposal but rather they were aware of a "wish list."

I would like to ask the Premier: Is he aware the last cabinet meeting prior to the June election, as we understand it, was May 15? We would like to know whether this was the specific proposal by the province through the Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council at the federal government. Was the specific proposal on the cabinet agenda, were the Manitoba ministers in attendance at that meeting, and was this matter dealt with at that cabinet meeting?

Mr. Filmon: If the member is asking about the federal cabinet meeting, I would have no knowledge of that at all. As he knows, cabinet affairs are normally privileged, and it would not be a matter of public record as to whether or not those people were in attendance or what was on the agenda. I do know that particular proposal and the numbers that were tabled that were attached to the proposal was faxed to the Deputy Clerk of the federal cabinet that day, and we assumed it was for the purpose of discussion that day, but I cannot verify that.

Mr. Doer: We have gone through--it almost sounds like echoes of disputes past between the provincial government and the federal government dealing with flood compensation. The '95 flood, the '96 flood, here we have the '97 flood, and the feedback we are getting from people is let us get on with it; let us get this thing settled. People are concerned about the federal election date and having the leverage to get a decent settlement. On the other hand, people that we are listening to are saying, you know, if we can all co-operate in the spirit we had in Manitoba over the last number of weeks together to fight this flood, surely the provincial and federal governments can reach a spirit of co-operation and get a settlement.

Can the Premier advise us whether there is any opportunity to get this settled before the voting date so that Manitobans are not left a year later with still not knowing the specifics? Will there be another cabinet meeting, and can we get on with this flood compensation package in a spirit of co-operation and final resolution which Manitobans need in this crisis of 1997?

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Mr. Filmon: I wholeheartedly accept the advice of the Leader of the Opposition, and I accept his point of view. It has always been my perspective that a spirit of co-operation is what is necessary in order for us to achieve the most beneficial solutions for all Manitobans. I might say that we were happy to co-operate with the federal government when three of their ministers wanted to sign an agreement that indicated a federal commitment to resolving issues in Manitoba. Part of that agreement indicated that there would be immediate application of senior officials on both sides to quantify and to essentially provide the framework, the outline of how much money was involved in the principles that were outlined in the agreement that the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Cummings) and the Minister of Government Services (Mr. Pitura) and I signed that day with Mr. Gerrard, Mr. Young and Mr. Axworthy. So our total approach to this has been to co-operate. We do not want this to be an issue of politics in the federal campaign. Unfortunately, that is what is transpiring as a result of what has gone on.

The member knows that federal members of Parliament, federal Liberal members of Parliament that were quoted in the article in the paper indicating their expectations and the announcements that have been made unilaterally by the federal government with respect to their support which is welcome to all of us, not something we criticized, because they have indicated that they want to help. We want that to happen.

That is the situation we find ourselves in. I am told that they do not have another federal cabinet meeting coming up between now and the June 2 election. We will continue to be available to do whatever seems reasonable in order to arrive at a continuing solution that will help all Manitobans as we try now to cope with the ravages and the effects of the flood and now try and put the pieces back together.

Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): My questions are for the Minister of Education.

Madam Speaker, at three o'clock this afternoon the chairman of the board of governors at Keewatin Community College is meeting with staff in an emergency meeting to explain to them some of the background to the crisis that has emerged at KCC where five of the senior managers are, I believe, in the process of resigning. Those managers include the chief financial officer, and in their letter, copied to the minister and to the board of governors, what they have to say about KCC is an unparalleled indictment of a crisis situation.

I want to ask the minister if she is prepared to exert her authority under The Colleges Act, which remains in place, and to appoint an administrator to examine and inspect the financial condition, administrative condition, and, as it says in the act, any other matter related to the management and operation of a college.

Hon. Linda McIntosh (Minister of Education and Training): Madam Speaker, the situation at Keewatin College right now, a dispute between those five administrators and the college president who are at odds with each other over certain issues, is now in the hands of the board of governors. The board of governors, duly put in place to deal with exactly these kinds of situations, must be given the opportunity to deal with the crisis and seek a satisfactory resolution to the issues and the allegations raised by the administration against the president. The president's allegations against the administration have not yet been put towards the college board. I think we have to let the board govern according to the law that they were established to do. We are, however, closely monitoring the situation. My deputy has been in communication with Keewatin College, and we will give them the opportunity to resolve their difficulties.

Ms. Friesen: Do I take it, then, that this minister and this government, like so many of her colleagues, in fact are not prepared to take any responsibility for the crises facing the college, for the projected deficit of a million dollars, for the cuts of $117,000 to college programs, the cuts of $210,000 to aboriginal programs that have been the result of the underfunding of colleges by this government and in particular the reduction of $170,000 announced only within the last month?

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Mrs. McIntosh: The government of Manitoba has continued to fund colleges to the level that they have funded colleges in the past. We have not cut funding for community colleges.

Madam Speaker, I also indicate that this member herself was one who was vehement in the legislation coming forward on the Council on Post-Secondary Education that the Minister of Education or the Council on Post-Secondary Education not be given the ability to interfere and a very quick response to situations that need to be governed by the colleges. This member was adamant that there be clauses in there that would prevent the minister and the council from interfering in the self-governance of colleges, and I think Hansard will reveal that quite clearly.

Madam Speaker, the member herself has just acknowledged that the college board has yet to meet. They will be meeting later today with the--

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Madam Speaker: Order, please.

Mrs. McIntosh: Madam Speaker, the member has indicated there is a meeting at three o'clock today, if I am not mistaken. It is now 10 to two. Perhaps she can tell me how they have already met to discuss the issue if they are going to meet at three, an hour before the meeting?

Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Wolseley, with a final supplementary question.

Ms. Friesen: There is so much misinformation in the minister's statement, I do not know where to start with it, but I would like to say, Madam Speaker--my final supplementary for the minister is that she simply cannot continue to dismiss an issue where the five senior managers of this college allege financial mismanagement, lack of effective planning, inappropriate human resource management, lack of leadership, integrity, honesty, trust and teamwork.

This is a serious issue not just for KCC but for the North. I want to ask the minister if she could explain why it is that, after years of having that board appointed by this Tory government, there is, according to the five senior managers, still no comprehensive multiyear business plan for the college based on a clearly defined mission, a set of shared college values and principles and a limited number of mid- to long-term priority goals?

That seems to me, Madam Speaker, the basics for a board.

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Madam Speaker: Order, please.

Mrs. McIntosh: I wonder if I could be told which question to answer since I am only allowed to answer one.

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Mrs. McIntosh: I will then indicate that--

Madam Speaker: Order, please.

Ms. Friesen: I understood the minister to be asking for her mind to be refreshed on the question, and indeed it was. Why has KCC no plan?

Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Wolseley does not have a point of order.

Mrs. McIntosh: Madam Speaker, last week five members on the administrative staff of the Keewatin Community College indicated their displeasure with the management style of Dr. Sam Shaw, the president of the university, wrote to the board to express that concern. I was copied on that letter which came late last week or early this week. Today we received another piece of correspondence indicating that the board of governors had responded to those five senior administrators asking them to please exercise the proper process of filing a complaint.

Now, Madam Speaker, we know, and my deputies have been in touch with Keewatin Community College, we are monitoring the situation very closely, but we do know that at the moment what we have are allegations from five people that the board is currently looking at. The board, I think, needs to be given an opportunity to examine those allegations and determine in their minds as governors whether or not those allegations are correct or as a result of personality conflicts with an administrator whose style they object to. That needs to be determined by the board.

Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Wolseley, with a new question.

Ms. Friesen: With a new question, I want to ask the Minister of Education why it is, since none of the issues that are alleged in this particular letter to the board and to the minister--none of these are new, they are all of long standing. They deal with very serious issues of personnel, of administration, of accounting, of financial mismanagement, and I am quoting from the letter. Could the minister explain why it is that the board she appointed, a Tory board, has been unable to deal with any of these issues over the last 12 months or the last two years?

Mrs. McIntosh: Of course I do not accept any of the preamble as accurate. The member herself knows that she herself has risen many times in this House asking for increased aboriginal representation on that board, which we have provided. It is now nearly 50 percent aboriginal. I believe if she checks with people at the Swampy Cree Tribal Council, et cetera, she will find they are very satisfied with Dr. Sam Shaw and things going on under this particular board of governors, so I think the allegation she is making, that all is bad, may or may not be correct.

I think, Madam Speaker, that we do need to allow the college's board of governors the opportunity to do its job, investigate allegations put to it and give them time to do it. That is their job. That is their authority under the law, a law which the member opposite firmly and absolutely and strongly endorses and has many times in Hansard.

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Ms. Friesen: What I am asking the minister to do is to take some responsibility in this issue.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for Wolseley was recognized for a supplementary question, which requires no preamble or no postamble.

Ms. Friesen: Could the minister confirm then that the reason that she has abandoned responsibility for this very serious issue in the North is because the chair of the board is in fact a Tory candidate in the current federal election?

Mrs. McIntosh: Madam Speaker, I have not abandoned responsibility under the law, and I have not lessened my interest in Keewatin Community College one iota. The member's assumption is wrong.

Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Can the minister give us any assurance that the Northern Nursing Program, a program which has been long awaited by many people across the North, is not going to fall victim to the chaos and the crisis that there is in Keewatin Community College right now and for which the minister appears to take no responsibility whatsoever?

Hon. Linda McIntosh (Minister of Education and Training): The member again has indicated that I am taking no responsibility, and I will not accept that allegation. We have been in communication with Keewatin Community College. We are closely monitoring the unfolding of events. We are allowing the allegations to be explored by the board as the due process would indicate it should occur.

Madam Speaker, I understand what the member is saying. The member is saying that the minister should fly up North, take over the college, let everybody go and run it myself, preferably with her as my principal.

Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River): Madam Speaker, it is a well-known fact that the health status of aboriginal people is well below that of the general population. Aboriginal people want this issue to be addressed and have become very frustrated and, in fact, many people from across the province today marched in the streets of Winnipeg trying to bring attention to this issue. I will table a list of issues identified by the Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs that have caused them frustration.

Given the history of continuous jurisdictional conflict between the federal and provincial governments on this matter, will the minister responsible or the Premier show some flexibility and leadership to get this jurisdictional conflict resolved so that aboriginal people can start working to address the very serious health issues facing their communities?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, I thank the member for raising that issue. I am glad that it has come to her attention.

We have met regularly with the Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs, in fact, at least an annual get-together with the cabinet. I can recall at virtually every one of those meetings, going back some four or five years, raising that specific issue and identifying the health circumstances of the aboriginal people as being a very significant issue that needed to be addressed, that needed leadership, I might say, from the aboriginal leadership of this province.

Much of what she is referring to has to do with lifestyle, has to do with diet, has to do with circumstances that are to some degree self-imposed--nutrition, diet, choices that are made with respect to living conditions and circumstances that I think need to have some leadership from our aboriginal leadership in this province. I know that they have agreed with me on that, and as a result of that, I think there are a number of programs that the Minister of Health (Mr. Praznik) has been working on now for more than a year that have to do with kidney disease, with other matters, diabetes and those kinds of things.

So I am glad that she is aware of the problem, and I assure her that this is something that we are committed to work on in co-operation with the aboriginal leadership of this province.

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Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River): I am sure that the Premier will also recognize that it is sewer and water and standard of living that affects the quality of these people--

An Honourable Member: Access programs.

Ms. Wowchuk: Access and other programs. Since one of the--

Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for Swan River was recognized for a supplementary question.

Ms. Wowchuk: Since one of the major health problems is the high rate of diabetes, and given that the minister responsible for aboriginal affairs said when he was speaking on a resolution on diabetes, and I quote: This is a status-blind issue I identify and certainly would be encouraged that this not just be a federal jurisdiction kind of focus--will the Premier agree that the province has a responsibility to play in this? Will they follow up and not just pay lip service to it but put money into it to ensure that we have dialysis treatment for these people, where we have the highest rate of dialysis in the province amongst aboriginal people?

Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): First of all, with respect to the specifics of the member's question, this administration has put increasing resources into dialysis services I know in my own area, the creation of the unit in Pine Falls hospital that services a large First Nations population north of that, and in other places through our province. We are now considering ways of where we have to expand that.

Madam Speaker, the answer in dialysis, the long-term answer that is repeated to me over and over again by people who work in this particular area is in the area of prevention, which comes back to what the Premier (Mr. Filmon) was speaking about, lifestyle. I am pleased to report that some weeks ago I met with many of the aboriginal political organizations like MKO, like the Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs, like a number of tribal councils where we are looking at how we are going to interact between our governance structure to overcome those kinds of jurisdictional issues that have prevented positive action in the past. I think we can work those things and get on to the community health issues that are thoroughly important to beating a disease like diabetes.

Ms. Wowchuk: Madam Speaker, surely we have to agree that, along with prevention, we have to treat those people who have the disease right now. Will the province agree that they must address the issue in those communities where it has become such an epidemic state where they are looking for dialysis treatment in their own community? Will the province show leadership and work with these communities so that we do not have people dying from diabetes because they cannot get treatment?

Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, the record of this government certainly speaks to our commitment to providing dialysis to people throughout the province, something that was not done under the administration of the New Democrats when they were in this province. We have expanded it to many areas of the province, and I can tell her that it is an issue that certainly we began to discuss with the leadership to try and work at the prevention side when I toured, along with the former Minister of Health, several dialysis units in this province, and more than half the spaces were filled with aboriginal people. There is an unmistakable correlation between their diet, nutrition and lifestyle and the results in their health circumstances.

So I say to her that we have to work on both ends, and that is why we have expanded dialysis in this province for the treatment side, but the long term is that we do not want people to be in unhealthy circumstances, being treated in the hospitals if we can prevent that. That is why the investment must be made and the effort must be made by the leadership of the aboriginal community in convincing people, convincing their own people that they must change the choices they make about their lifestyle, their diet, their nutrition.

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Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, my question is for the Premier. Yesterday, as many Manitobans saw on TV, the Filmon team and the Charest team have bonded together. As part of that Tory bonding, what we see is a Charest approach to health care that is going to see us rely more on the tax point transfers and the eventual getting rid of cash transfers to the province.

Will the Premier not agree with the opposition members of this Chamber that any decreases that would wipe out the cash transfer payments are not in the best interests of Manitobans, that he does not support that Charest platform?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, we certainly know which team the member for Inkster is on. I saw him on the back deck of a house on Scotia Street about three weeks ago handing the sandbag over to the Prime Minister. The problem is that the sandbag did not come with instructions, and the member for Inkster did not know anything to tell him, but anyway, it is all right.

In any case, getting to the point of the question, I might say that I was very impressed with the policy that was espoused by the Leader of the Progressive Conservative Party of Canada, Mr. Charest, which, I might say, was that not only would he stop the cuts from the federal government of transfer payments for health and education but that he would see some additional $2 billion put back into the health care system by the year 2000. It seems to me that the member opposite ought to be interested in having more money put into the hands of the province for health care so that we can work on so many of the issues that he raises from time to time in this House with respect to having sufficient money to spend on our health care system for the benefit of all Manitobans.

I would also make the point to him that when we discussed this issue--and I did discuss it with him privately prior to the public meeting that we had--I made the point, which he agrees, that tax point transfers have to be equalized tax points because, as I have indicated on many occasions, one point of tax raises much more per capita in some provinces than in others and therefore--[interjection] The member for Crescentwood (Mr. Sale) wants to answer the question, but that is all right; we will let him answer it later. That is the whole issue, that when we make these transfers of tax points so that we can have more money for health care, it will also be equalized so that we, as a province, will not be denied the opportunity to have the same level of services as other provinces.

Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, what I am asking the Premier is: Will the government state for the public record that this government supports cash transfers, that they do not want to see those cash transfers turn into tax points?

Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, what is important is that we get money to fund the services, and what is important is that that transfer is done on an equitable basis so that a smaller province like Manitoba is not disadvantaged vis-a-vis a larger, wealthier province such as British Columbia or Ontario. But what you cannot do is argue about services if you have the money being cut off at the end that delivers the money. That is exactly what the federal Liberals have done in their three and a half years in government, and that is what has to come to an end. That is why I believe Mr. Charest's policy is better for us.

Mr. Lamoureux: I ask the Premier: How can he say that when I have heard several of his ministers in the past say that the transfer to tax points--they do not even acknowledge the transfer of tax points and how those have increased--does not count when it comes to transfer payments for health care from Ottawa? So how can he say that when Charest is going to do it, it is okay? Will he not say today that it is not acceptable to pass over the cash transfers to tax points?

Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, the short answer is that what we have criticized over the last three and a half years is the Liberal government in Ottawa reducing the transfers to Manitoba for health and education by $220 million a year. That is $220 million less that we have to spend on health and post-secondary education. That is what we have been fighting against, and that is what we have consistently criticized. I do not know what the member for Inkster thinks he is doing for Manitobans when he stands up and defends that kind of action.

Ms. MaryAnn Mihychuk (St. James): Madam Speaker, my question is for the Minister responsible for Lotteries. Today we understand that the government will be announcing another self-serving report in a press conference away from this Chamber. My question to the minister: Will he table the report here in the House so that we can have an opportunity to look at the report before you try and construct your agenda, your spin on this Lotteries report like you have in the past? Will you table the report?

Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister charged with the administration of the Manitoba Lotteries Corporation Act): Madam Speaker, what a ridiculous question. The member fails to recognize that our responsibility is to all Manitobans. The Larry Desjardins committee recommended a feasibility study be performed in terms of the future of the Crystal Casino. That report has now been completed by Price Waterhouse. It has been made available to us, and we will be releasing it for the benefit of all Manitobans later today.

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for St. James, with a supplementary question.

Ms. Mihychuk: Madam Speaker, how can the minister and this government justify releasing this news to the media and other sources while not bringing it to this House? Will the minister confirm that the report recommends the closure of Crystal Casino and the amalgamation of those facilities with the McPhillips Street Station?

Mr. Stefanson: Madam Speaker, the report will be made available to all members of this House this afternoon, as it will be also made available to all citizens of Manitoba in terms of the information provided in that report.

The member is correct in the sense of what one of the recommendations will be. One of the recommendations will be the consolidation of the Crystal Casino with the two other facilities here in Winnipeg, the Regent Avenue facility and the McPhillips Street facility. Obviously there is a basis for that, based on economics, based on tourism opportunities, and that is all clearly--[interjection]

Madam Speaker, if the member for Wellington (Ms. Barrett) has a question, tell her to ask her House leader to get on the list and ask the question.

That is one of the recommendations, I acknowledge that, and that report will be available to all members.

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Madam Speaker: The honourable member for St. James, with a final supplementary question.

Ms. MaryAnn Mihychuk (St. James): Madam Speaker, with this announcement we might as well put the sign "closed, out of business" to downtown--

Madam Speaker: Order, please.

Ms. Mihychuk: Has the minister and his staff consulted with the Downtown Biz and facilities like Eaton's, which is planning to close, to ensure that downtown Winnipeg remains alive and healthy, or is he willing to abandon downtown Winnipeg?

Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister charged with the administration of The Manitoba Lotteries Corporation Act): The member for St. James seems to be implying that the be-all and end-all and only solution to downtown Winnipeg is a casino being located down there.

We have a casino in downtown Winnipeg right now. It is in the Hotel Fort Garry. If it meant an awful lot to that particular business, you would think they would be wanting the casino to stay. They do not want it to stay. They have asked for it to be removed when the lease expires in 1999. Attendance at that casino is down by some 24 percent, so I would encourage the member for St. James to take the time to read the report before she jumps to those kinds of conclusions.

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable Minister responsible for The Manitoba Lotteries Corporation, to quickly complete his response.

Mr. Stefanson: Madam Speaker, there is an awful lot more to this issue than just jumping to that very simplistic solution, but I do want to assure her that the kinds of groups that she has referred to have in fact been consulted by Price Waterhouse. I have also met with some of them as well, some of the groups that she named here today. Obviously that has been an important part of the preparation of this document, consulting with the Downtown Biz, with Tourism Winnipeg, with Winnipeg 2000, with the City of Winnipeg and so on. Those consultations have in fact taken place in the preparation of the report.

Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): A few days ago I pointed out to the Minister of Finance that real wages have declined by 4 percent under this government, but the Minister of Finance admonished us to examine after-tax income instead. Therefore, I would ask the Minister of Finance to study the latest estimates of personal disposable income, that is after-tax income, from all sources in constant dollars and acknowledge that since this government was elected in 1988, Manitobans have suffered a decline of 5.5 percent. That is, Manitobans have less in their pockets today than when this government took office.

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Madam Speaker: Order, please.

Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance): Madam Speaker, what I would encourage the member for Brandon East to do, including all of his colleagues, is to look at the information provided just last Friday by Statistics Canada, just last Friday. First of all, the issue he asks about in terms of total income, total income in Manitoba for 1996, now the most recent year, grew by 4.7 percent, the second best performance amongst all provinces and more than double the national average. But more important, the issue that he raises today, the issue of disposable after-tax income, income in Manitoba after taxes in 1996 rose by 4.4 percent, more than four times Canada's increase and amongst the best in Canada.

So those are the facts with what is happening with gross incomes today in Manitoba, but more important I am glad to see that finally the member for Brandon East is acknowledging that what is most important to Manitobans is what they are left with in their pockets after taxes. This government has a record of 10 straight years of no increases in major taxes, unlike the record from 1981 to 1988 when taxes went up in Manitoba some 60 or 70 times under the NDP.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. Time for Oral Questions has expired.