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Mr. Chairperson (Marcel Laurendeau): Good afternoon. Would the Committee of Supply please come to order. This section of the Committee of Supply has been dealing with the Estimates of the Department of Education and Training, and the minister's staff has entered the Chamber.

We are on Resolution 16.1. Administration and Finance (e) Financial and Administrative Services (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $881,300, on page 33 of the Estimates book.

The honourable minister, you had an answer to a question that was posed to you last night.

Hon. Linda McIntosh (Minister of Education and Training): The member had asked, just before we broke yesterday, about integrating the public school program plans into the Estimates supplement and how we were going to put a number of the things that the Auditor recommended we have in the report into the report. Specifically, in reference to the Auditor's recommendation that the public school programs plan be fully integrated into the Estimates Supplement and that we develop long-term objectives and related performance indicators for the public schools program, the annual measurable expected results related to performance indicators of the disclosure of accountability documents, it is disclosed in the full revenues and expenditures of the public system in that and complying with the Department of Finance's instructions on Estimates supplements and annual reports.

We are in agreement that these be in. We did not have time this year to incorporate them into what we put out this year, but we are hoping to have them in subsequent reports that we put forward. We feel it is a good recommendation that we are working actively to ensure it comes to reality. We just did not have time, in time when the Auditor reported to us, and our own report this year had to be ready to have it in this year's book, but she should see some of these things next year.

Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): I recognize that the timing of this is such that the department could not do this for this fiscal year, but I am interested in the specific timing for each of those and, in particular, from the page the minister was reading from, page 75, No. 4, which is the full revenues and expenditures of the public school program. Does the minister expect that can be done by the next fiscal year?

Mrs. McIntosh: Yes, we do.

Ms. Friesen: I wanted to ask, as well, about further evaluation by the Auditor. I know the Auditor works on a rotating basis amongst departments, and as the minister mentioned, this was the first of a particular type of audit done on the Department of Education. Does the minister anticipate, or is there a schedule which addresses the auditing, either, effective aud--I forget the word they use now--functional audits is it, or effectiveness audits that will address the Department of Education? Is there a schedule for that over the next few years?

Mrs. McIntosh: Mr. Chairman, my staff, specifically the deputy and the deputy's staff, do meet annually with the Auditor and the Auditor's people. They, of course, are free to decide if they wish to meet with us at any other time. We will, in all likelihood, invite a review as a follow-up.

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In terms of this particular review coming out of this particular report, we were fully supportive of some of the initiatives that we anticipated we would be seeing in the report. We are pleased in that it is our understanding that the Auditor felt this kind of an audit could be done initially, or started initially, with the Department of Education because as a compliment to my staff, I understand that they are quite receptive to critiques and evaluations of this type, and are eager to start doing things with some of these new ways of presentation. So it is, in all likelihood, something that will happen that my deputy would ask for a follow-up for further commentary, guidance, or whatever, so that as we shift to a new way of putting forward information, we are reaching higher and higher levels of acceptability and accountability.

So, as I say, it is up to the Auditor as to how often or how frequently they may wish to communicate with us, but the door is always open. We are always ready to listen to helpful advice, and we consider this to be very helpful. We like what we are being guided here to do.

Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chairman, so as I understand it then, there is not a regular schedule of evaluation of departments of this nature; it will be at the mutual decision of both departments.

Mrs. McIntosh: The member may wish to discuss this with the Provincial Auditor when the Auditor makes a report, because when we say that the Auditor is free to decide, by that we mean, while we are agreeable and happy, this does not require our agreement or our happiness. The Auditor is in the position of authority, whereby we could say we would like a particular thing audited and the Auditor could say no. The Auditor could come in and say that they are going to audit some other thing that would not be our first priority, but if it is the Auditor's, it will get done.

So no one has any say over their audit. They can audit us anytime they want on any topic they want. What we are indicating here is that although this role of Auditor report to the Legislative Assembly, that we welcome our annual encounter with the Auditor and we are always agreeable--like it is agreeable to us, the moves that the Auditor is making, and they are obviously agreeable to the Auditor because the Auditor has the sole and final decision. So you may wish to ask the Auditor if there is a regular schedule of meetings that the Auditor has planned. We would not know that or be able to make that happen. We would, however, be agreeable if the Auditor wanted that. I do not know if that is the answer that you were seeking.

Ms. Friesen: At the bottom of page 76 in the Auditor's Report, there is a section there that deals with planning, commends the department for the initiative on school planning, but makes the point that really good schools--at least this is how I interpret it and maybe the department would like to comment upon this--the Auditor seems to be saying that, until the department itself publishes sufficient and appropriate information on the public school program, the usefulness of any school board performance plans or reports will be limited.

Now I know the department is beginning the process of developing school plans in schools, and I wondered how the timing of this is going to work. The Auditor seems to be saying the department has to move first, then the schools have to come in with their plans. I think a third point that the Auditor is making is also the publication of information on public school programs is an important issue, not just the department has the plans, but that they publish them. I wonder if the department could comment on the Auditor's comments there.

Mrs. McIntosh: Mr. Chairman, the item pointed out by the Auditor, in terms of making full effective use of Information Systems to better assist the field as we enter into new planning and school plans and so on, we see as a phased-in approach, a series of building blocks. We had some extensive dialogue yesterday on the EIS, and that is step one, phase one of the approach to deal with this particular issue. So we are articulating that EIS. It is underway and is already becoming a part of life and will soon, not fully at this point but soon, be having a comfort level and impact through the school system that will be as accepted as the telephone is now. So that is underway.

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We are also developing an indicators project which is co-chaired by the Deputy Minister, Mr. Carlyle. We discussed that at some length yesterday with the member for Crescentwood (Mr. Sale), as part of our whole Information System. That indicators project, as it completes its work, will address one of the very main points pointed out by the Auditor. Also underway, again chaired by the deputy, is a team--I am just going to call it a planning group because it is in its very initial stage. It does not have a formal title, so to speak, as yet. But that group will be beginning to develop the aligning of school plans, divisional plans, departmental plans, so that we have consistency and knowledge and understanding of those three areas one to the other. So there are three phases currently underway, some to more degree than the other. Like the three, EIS, indicators and planning, in that order, have begun work. So the EIS, of course, is obviously further ahead than the planning, the team to deal with bringing together the aligning of planning for all of those three areas.

It is underway and, again, this is another point wherein we are in full agreement with the Auditor but have, I think, taken some substantial steps in putting together a series of building blocks that are well underway. Hopefully, it will not be too much longer before we are able to have the Auditor indicate that particular initiative is underway satisfactorily.

Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chairman, I would like to come back to the indicators project a little later, but maybe just finish with the Auditor's Report first. The Auditor's Report is entitled Public Schools Program Accountability Framework. Yet, on page 67, it does talk about, under the section Independent and Home Schools, the Auditor says, in order to receive provincial funding, independent schools must comply with the requirements set out in The Public Schools Act and regulations.

Now my understanding is that this is not exactly true, that there are sections of The Public Schools Act regulations which do not apply to private schools. The minister and I have talked about this before, and I am looking forward to the new set of regulations that will be applying to the private schools.

So what I am concerned about here is the Auditor's understanding of what he was dealing with, he/she. This seems to me to be a sense that the Auditor believes that what he is saying is applicable to private schools as well, just because of that paragraph where there seemed to me not a clear definition of which act applies where and when. So I am wondering if the department noticed that, if that had been discussed.

Am I reading too much into this? I am going on with questions here, but I think what I really want to know is: Does the Auditor intend that all of the recommendations that he has made here should apply equally to the private schools?

Mrs. McIntosh: My interpretation of that comment, and I believe it is what the Auditor intended, that when the Auditor says in order to receive provincial funding, independent schools must comply with the requirements set out in The Public Schools Act and regulations, my interpretation of that is based upon my understanding that the Auditor is fully conversant with what conditions they must attain, and those ones that the Auditor says they must comply with the regulations and requirements of The Public Schools Act, those being that, in order to qualify for funding, independent schools must first operate for three years with certified Manitoba teachers, utilizing the Manitoba curriculum, producing audited financial statements for the department, operate under an elected board of trustees, and all other aspects of The Education Administration Act and The PSA Act. At the present time, they are not on frame, but we do have their audited financial statements, and they must comply with that for three years before they are eligible to be considered for funding.

I believe that is what the Auditor is referring to when he talks about them having to comply with requirements and regulations under the act in order to qualify for funding. I say that because the Auditor, although I do not see any reference, well, the Auditor does make reference to nonfunded schools, which are those schools that received no public money because they do not comply with some or all of those items that I just mentioned.

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We know, for example, that we have schools that run where they may not all have certified teachers, but instead they will use a musician to teach music or a chemist to teach chemistry or a biologist to teach biology; those types where they may not be certified teachers per se. Therefore, they do not get any funding at all and the Auditor is aware of that, so my expectation would be that he would be or she would be conversant with the subject that they are auditing and that they would be referring to these items that I have just indicated.

I guess with any of these, this is an evolving thing. When we say funded schools must administer exams, for example, well, that would apply to funded schools, including the partly funded ones which are independent schools. I do not know if that is of assistance or not. If we have further accountability directives emerging in the future, in all likelihood they too would apply to independent schools if they do not intrude upon, say, religious rights or something of that nature.

Ms. Friesen: The Auditor focuses upon planning and performance information provided by school boards to the department. He wants the school boards to demonstrate how they are going to address and meet the public school program objectives set by the minister. Can the minister explain how this will be affected with private schools. For example, are private schools going to be required to submit plans, and what kind of performance--I do not think performance indicator is the right term at this stage, but what kinds of levels of accountability will be required from private schools subsequent to the Auditor's suggestions?

Mrs. McIntosh: Mr. Chairman, I had indicated yesterday, in my dialogue with the member for Crescentwood (Mr. Sale) on the integrated plans reporting and information systems, that we are in the process of developing a framework for reporting and accumulating data on a wide variety of items, and that framework is not totally in place yet in all areas, although it is in many, as we move into the electronic age and the technological capabilities that are available for us.

Having said that, as I said as well in my previous answer, this is an evolving area. We will have new subjects that we wish to have reported upon, new kinds of school planning, et cetera. It is our expectation, depending upon the items that come forward, that anything that applies to accountability measures in exchange for funding received would be asked to be reported in a similar fashion from both the fully funded and the partly funded schools. In the partly funded schools, the independent schools, it may not be appropriate for us to ask, for example, you know, which bequests were willed to the school through the church through which the school is associated. If Holy Ghost School, for example, on Selkirk Avenue, has a bequest given to it from Holy Ghost Church, some parishioner there has died and asked that it be an anonymous donation, that would be part of the revenues of the school, but it might not be appropriate or proper for us to ask for the details of that so we might be asking for just a thing that says, revenues other, you know, in a situation like that. Those are still being developed because there is a different system of funding.

The public schools rarely, if any, receive donations from the public or from religious bodies or organization such as that. The independent schools frequently do because of their nature so they will have different revenue streams aside from the one that is provided by government. In terms of saying where government has provided funding, government would like accountability for that funding, that is a fair question, and that is something that we will be looking to build into our reporting mechanisms in some way that is clear to the reader.

Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chairman, what I was asking about was school programs and school plans that the minister is beginning to set in motion. I assume there are going to be plans required from every school at a certain date, that those plans are to be lodged with the division rather than with the minister, that those plans will be on a somewhat systematic basis and that there will be some professional development, perhaps for principals or for school advisory councils in the development of those plans.

The Auditor is interested in those. He wants to see them preceded by some work on the part of the department, appropriate performance planning information from the department. The minister has indicated that the department has taken that under consideration and will be working on that. So my question was: Are private schools to be involved in the same policy of development of school plans?

Mrs. McIntosh: Apologies to the member because I did not mean to leave out that part of the answer to the question she asked, and I do recall her asking it.

I indicate, just, first, a small correction. I am not sure if it is clear, but the member made mention of the plans being housed with the school division, and they are, but the division then, in turn--and the member may know this, but just in case I will just provide the clarification--the school divisions then provide a synopsis to the minister. So the schools will provide their plans to the school division.

The school division normally has several schools. They do a synopsis, submit it to the minister. Our desire is that independent schools would do the same thing. Where they do not have a board--the Winnipeg Jewish board, for example, has several schools under it, but many independent schools do not--then that synopsis could come straight to the minister.

We would be looking to receive the same types of information with the one proviso that we do not intrude upon any of the things that they give up half their funding to be, in terms of independent rights and so on. But basically we are looking for the same kind of information, the same kind of understandings as to what is occurring and what kind of accountability would be there.

I have more details I could provide to the member if she wishes, that maybe you had asked about PD and that type of--would you like that now? Okay.

My deputy has handed me some information that then may be of interest to her regarding the school plans initiative. School plans, now this is just generically for schools in Manitoba, not for a particular type of school. School plans are intended to contribute to the development of effective learning environments and programs at the school level. To develop plans, school staff, parents and community members are expected to work collaboratively to identify school priorities, educational directions and areas of needed improvement. The plan will serve to strengthen school improvement and communicate information to all parents, the community, the school board, the department.

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We had about 80 schools as of May 1996. We have certainly many more--because that is last year's figure--than that at this point, but that is the stat that I have here that is the most current one in front of me. So they had 80 schools about this time last year identified by their school divisions as pilot schools for year one of the implementation process for school plans. But we have been working--the department staff being we--with schools on a regional basis, and sometimes have requested on an individual basis since that time.

Last August, we held a summer institute for pilot school principals and superintendents. We presented material at that institute, and that was distributed to all attendees. A database of pilot schools was subsequently compiled and shared so that schools involved in the project could network with schools in similar situations.

In December, all pilot schools completed a status report that highlighted their areas of activities and concerns regarding the project. That data received was analysed and a summary report was distributed to all pilot schools and superintendents in January of this year, 1997. MFIS, the Manitoba Federation of Independent Schools, had asked to be involved, so a couple of independent schools were in the pilot that I have just finished describing.

The pilot schools were submitting their final phase one of their school plans to their school boards a month or so ago. Those boards will be forwarding that information to us, and it may already have been received or should be received shortly. In the Education and Training offices, the regional managers, I think, would probably have them by now, although I myself have not seen them at this point.

We had some workshops as well with pilot schools and superintendents last month, and those were to collect feedback regarding the project, prepare for the broadening of the scope of the school plans involvement from those 80 pilot schools to all the other schools in the province. That is at about this time, so I do not have immediate update on it, and I do not have Carolyn Loeppky here at this moment to speak to it in detail, but those are some of the things we have done so far.

During the 1997-98 school year, the department will support the development of the first phase of school plans by all schools. School division board offices will play a key role in helping their schools develop a planning process which will result in quality school plans. It is expected that departmental staff will interact with school divisions individually and in regions to promote and guide the first phase of school plans.

We expect the initial school plans, not pilot status but initial actual status, in the spring of 1998. Then those all, of course, will go to the regional managers and the department again. We will use that information departmentally to do a number of things, one of which is to plan and target support services to schools and school divisions. In phase two, we hope to have comprehensive school plans, by all schools, which are expected to be developed in the spring of 1999.

So, as you can see, we are going through a process. We are in the midst of it right at this time, and there will be a lot still to evolve as we go through, but much has already been accomplished. As I indicated to the member, these 80 schools did contain a few independent schools as well in the pilot stage of this whole process. So their participation and their results will also be part of our overall analysis and work.

Just as a final note, my deputy has met with the Manitoba Association of School Superintendents to invite them to jointly begin plans for a fall 1997 executive institute, which would be a two-day executive institute. One of the main topics to be covered at that will be school division planning. That will be for superintendents and assistant superintendents to make sure that they are comfortable and knowledgeable about the intention of government and the way this will play out in the field.

I hope that provides the information the member was seeking.

Ms. Friesen: Yes, thank you very much, and I finished dealing with the Auditor's Report, but in a sense what there is, I think, here is a linking of issues back to the school indicators. But just to conclude with the issue of school plans, I know we are not on the right line, but I am wanting to know what public information will be provided from this.

We have looked now at plans that will go from the school to the division in a synopsis to the minister. When the system is in full process, how will that be communicated to the public? Will it be done on an annual basis, will it be done as part of the school indicator's program, what level of information is the minister anticipating, and is there a model? For example, we have mentioned Alberta in previous discussions, is there a model that the government is looking at to adapt?

Mrs. McIntosh: We do not have any models right now, and I do not have all the answers that I would like to be able to provide for the member at this time. Maybe this time next year I might have more that I could say. What I can tell her in terms of our progress to date--first of all, good questions because they are the questions that we have asked ourselves and the Auditor has expressed interest in, and this is part of our evolutionary process as we move into things such as individual school plans, et cetera.

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We will be analyzing and providing comments, and those will come in two ways. One would be straight to the divisions for them to get commentary back from us. The other thing we hope to be doing and we hope to do it something like this, but I am saying it is a hope; it is a goal, because we may alter the way in which we finally do it. But at this point we would like to ultimately in our annual report that we table here in the Legislature be able to have in there the activities that tie educational goals and outcomes, which would include plans, to the dollars spent.

Now that may come together in the form of an indicator, but right now our indicators--when we were talking yesterday with the member for Crescentwood (Mr. Sale), we were talking about our indicators being, at the moment, achievement, citizenship, mobility, those kinds of indicators and outputs. At the moment we do not include that particular aspect, so it could well, indeed, come together as an indicator. It could come together in some other form. We may decide to modify that goal to be slightly different than what I have just stated, but right now I think it is a pretty safe statement to make of our intent as to the second kind of communication reporting we would like--which when you see those details actually spelled out in the annual report with good transparency that could link what the activities are to the dollars spent.

We have received some support for an educator indicator's program from the stakeholders, those four organizations. If I just say the stakeholders from now on, the member, I think, will understand that I mean MTS, MASS, MAST and MASBO, and it will save me repeating them. Those four I will refer to generally as the stakeholders for our future conversation, just to make it a bit easier.

They have offered to help represent us from those four organizations in the department in working through privacy and confidentiality concerns that might be associated with some of these. But we expect a primary data source for the program could be our department's EIS database which is being enhanced in this upcoming, this '97-98 school year to include a new student module containing information on individual students but also a revised educator module containing information on professional personnel and linkages between modules, between students with high school marks, for example.

The consultation that we will be conducting with education stakeholders will be to help determine priorities for indicator development. I have mentioned a few that we have there. The department wants to create indicators which will service the needs of policymakers at all levels across the system. That would be the Department of Education, school divisions and school planning. So there is a spot there in which it could fit, and if we are looking at promoting an informed public, information from the indicators program will be released to the public through annual publications and, as I said, maybe even our annual report or perhaps a separate report on school planning. We are still trying to develop that, so I am sorry I do not have more than that I can say at this time, but I think that may give you an indication of what we are starting to think and where we are starting to head.

Ms. Friesen: Well, we look forward very much to the indicators project and to the public results of that.

I have raised in Estimates, I think on a number of occasions, and brought the Saskatchewan book and waved it and said, look, I think this is the kind of information that would be very helpful to people in Manitoba. I know that the evaluation of any indicators project is not going to be done on the basis of one example. Its real value is over a 10-year period, but the Saskatchewan practice has been to offer comparisons on the basis of gender, of economic circumstances to some extent as they can be categorized, as well as a regional basis. I am wondering if the department is moving in that direction or whether those are the comparisons that they feel would be useful to the public in Manitoba.

Mrs. McIntosh: The Saskatchewan indicators does interest us. Actually there are a number that are quite interesting. The Saskatchewan one is one. Quebec also has one. The council of ministers as well has put together one through StatsCan. OECD has indicators.

What we are doing, as I indicated when I talked about--we are beginning consultation with the education stakeholders here. What we are going to be doing, or are doing, is, in looking at possible data sets and indicators, trying to find out what the priorities would be for usage by our own stakeholders. What types of indicators do they feel they need? What way do they visualize data being broken down? What do they want to use them for? So we are asking them to help determine priorities for indicator development.

They may wish to lift items from Saskatchewan. That is perfectly fine with us, because we do not have trouble with some of these models. There are many things in some of these models we quite like, but we are really attempting to make sure that our own educators, our own education stakeholders, have the initial say, so to speak, in terms of being able to advise us on exactly what they would like to see. Various source documents will be used for that, and the one the member indicates will, in all likelihood, be a source document for exploration as people indicate their priorities to us.

We have not yet made a final determination, but certainly that is one source that appears to be a good one.

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Mr. Chairperson: Shall the item pass--pass.

16.1 Administration and Finance (e) Financial and Administrative Services (2) Other Expenditures $196,900--pass.

16.1(f) Management Information Services (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $560,300.

Ms. Friesen: I had two questions, I think, on this line. One deals with the Integrated Case Management project. I wonder if the minister could give us an indication of where that is and what the costs to the department are of that and what the end result will be.

Mrs. McIntosh: Mr. Chairman, primarily right now this is Family Services and Education and Training. We might have some possible future linkages to HRDC, but all we have at the moment, we have just received a preliminary draft business case which is under revision. We do not have a final version yet because it is currently being examined and revised and modified as it is studied. We should have a final version in a month or so but not tomorrow or today. So far, Education and Training has spent--and I think it would be probably the amount that we will have spent in total in Education and Training--for the business case, $75,000, approximately.

Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chairman, I am not familiar with the terminology "business case." Does that mean a case example as in a case study? Is this sort of the pilot project? What is meant by the "business case?"

Mrs. McIntosh: Basically, Mr. Chairman, it means a feasibility study.

Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chairman, what is the government's goal in integrated case management? Who will use the final result, what will be its purpose and what does it replace?

Mrs. McIntosh: I will bring forward more detail in a moment, Mr. Chairman, but it is basically to make better use of things that can be done in common between various departments. If you just give me a minute, I will come back with some more detail here.

We are looking at trying to avoid setting up parallel systems, hoping by co-ordinating the activities between and amongst departments, primarily here talking about Family Services and Education, although not exclusively just those two. There are so many linkages between the two. The Welfare to Work project, for example, sees people on social assistance being assessed for readiness for training in the workforce, and then Education and Training does training and helps place them in the workforce. There are all kinds of areas in there where there is transition for the people that occurs between the two departments as well, where integrated case management will ensure that we are not duplicating tasks, that we are better co-ordinated, that we have integrated the delivery of service, we have become more cost efficient and effective. We do not have clients having to go knocking on two doors side by side when one point of entry can give them access to the service they require. So we hope to be more cost effective and utilize the money that we have for more efficient service, as opposed to duplicating service.

There is always the risk--for example, in the example I just mentioned--of having both departments do the assessing, when it is really only required that one do it. So we try to get a handle on who is going to do what in this role of moving a person from welfare to work, starting off in one department as a social assistance recipient, ending up exiting through another department as a trained worker. There is a line in there when the two departments kind of come together. That is where we see the integrated case management being very helpful in making sure that we are not tripping over each other or leaving gaps, because leaving a gap would be just as bad as duplicating, and that is just one example, but that is the type of item that we are discussing when we talk about integrated case management.

It is in the early stages of partnership. Many of these initiatives we discussed today are still in their infancy because they are new, which, of course, makes them--it is a good time to ask questions about them as they begin to be developed. But we have new and enabling technologies that can help us do this kind of integrated case management so much more easily than it could have been done in the past. In short, the future benefit, we believe, would include improved client information that could help both departments to put in measures to help clients become more self sufficient more easily and at a better cost.

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Ms. Friesen: I wanted to note for the record some concerns about privacy issues here when two departments do collaborate for reasons of efficiency. I can see the argument for efficiency, but in the past when the educational information system was discussed, there were suggestions that a health number be added to an EIS number. The government quite rightly backed off that, abandoned that, I believe. That kind of layering of information certainly was not going to be, I hope, possible through the EIS system.

My understanding of what the minister is saying here is that this is dealing with adults, that the education numbers that will be attached to students as they come through the education system would not become a part of this, and that the layering of information, and this is the Canadian Privacy Act, that the collection of information for one purpose is not added on to another.

So I am saying that for the record. I would welcome some response from the minister. I wondered if in the development of this business plan whether there had been--was the Department of Culture and Heritage involved? We do have a new privacy act that we will see, I think, later on this week. What kind of overall government planning is this a part of?

Mrs. McIntosh: The member is correct in that we are not intending to use a student number for these purposes or to have that kind of layering occur. I mentioned earlier that we are looking at having the business case made or the feasibility study or whatever the terminology is that is most comfortable to use, and that will deal with this kind of item as well.

We do have the freedom of information and privacy protection under consideration, as the member knows, looking at policies on privacy or laws or rules on privacy that will be government-wide. Those kinds of decisions, once passed into law, of course, will apply to everything that we do and to all of the integrated case management that we put forward, making sure that they all comply with privacy provisions that will ensure that people do not have their own personal information made public or falling into the hands of inappropriate people.

This particular area actually has--I may have more detail for the member when we get to the post-secondary side. We talk about Employment Development because that is the main area under which this type of work is being done. I could probably provide her with more detailed or more significant answers under 16.5 when we have the post-secondary people here, although I can certainly provide this kind of basic generic answer for the member, Mr. Chairman, in the interim. But I just indicate that we do have people working extensively in this area who could be brought down when we get to the other line if she is looking for more detail than I am able to give her now.

Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chairman, just a follow-up question; that is, could the minister tell us how much of the budget of this section is devoted to that or how much is estimated to be allocated to that in this coming fiscal year?

Mrs. McIntosh: Mr. Chairman, for this particular year the cost is constrained. It is not excessive. For this line it would be a partial salary for one staff year, probably around $10,000 to $15,000, maybe $10,000 to $20,000.

Ms. Friesen: I wanted to ask about the departmental information technology infrastructure, but essentially I want to know what kinds of websites, what kind of e-mail is being used, how does it link to the field, what kind of usage is it receiving? For example, the website, is it just one website or are there more, including library, for example, library links? Is there an overall summary of that that the minister has?

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Mrs. McIntosh: This information sits in a number of areas, and MERLIN probably has the most information, but we do have information here that I think will answer her question. We have a single website in MERLIN and we, as well, send and receive about 10,000 external--that is external to the department--departmental e-mails outside the department each month and that would be going out and coming in, sending and receiving, so about 10,000 a month outside the department. All staff have the availability of e-mail and currently about 650 of our staff actually have e-mail.

But what is significant to us is now, at this point, virtually all our schools, universities, colleges and other provinces are on the Internet, and we do communicate back a lot. In January of this year in terms of hits--I love the terminology here. I do not know if that is what is commonly used, but it is what we use, and I guess it is what is commonly used--but the number of hits were around 3,225 in January and by March we were up to 2,800, et cetera. So we have those kinds of accesses being made to our pages, and the pages most frequently accessed from those numbers are school division lists and school links, instructional resources, MERLIN and the departmental directory. We have currently about 622 pages and that is up from 595 in January, so you can get a sense of the number of pages that are being added.

Just a few highlights of additions or improvements that have just been put in place or that we are putting in place. We have added a news release page that points to education-related releases on a government server, so that if there is a news release that goes out that has an educational component, it can be accessed for reading. We have added a What's New page. We have added several links to the school division home pages. We have added some French language curriculum documents or executive summaries of them. We have added the profile of elementary and secondary education highlights and the PDF format in French and in English. Those are the types of things that we are adding on.

Like anything else that we have discussed today, this is again still relatively new. We are hoping to become more and more extensive, more and more sophisticated in this area as quickly as we can. It is a phenomenal growth in terms of new approach. When you look at education in general across the post-secondary and K to S4, the linkages have come incredibly fast. Yet, incredibly fast though they have come, there is still so much more that we know it is capable of right at this moment that we have not yet done, so it seems that within this particular area, running as fast as you can, it is hard to catch up to the speed at which the changes are possible.

It is our goal to make increasing use of this kind of ability and capability because ultimately we can see it increasing swift access to information in a less expensive way. So that is a bit of where we are. As I say, when we get to MERLIN, if you wish we can give you yet more or you can ask more if you want to now and we will try.

Ms. Friesen: The minister mentioned instructional resources. I just wanted to know whether that was a bibliography of instructional resources or whether the department is actually beginning to develop instructional resources specifically for Internet or website or through this medium.

Mrs. McIntosh: At 1181 Portage and St. Boniface College we have a library. The terminology that we use is "instructional resources." The School Programs division has a library called instructional resources there. BEF, Bureau de 'éducation française, has a library at St. Boniface and it is called DREF.

As in August and in about a month and a half or two months from now, both of those libraries will have their full bibliography on the Internet and teachers will be able to access that, do their booking, getting the materials and everything right on the Internet without having to go down or do anything in person. So they can make all the arrangements and everything, from finding the resource to booking the resource at a time that they wanted it, et cetera, through that particular medium. So it is meant more to access a library's materials as opposed to actually have materials that can be read right on the--which would be the next really great goal, and so that is what that refers to.

Mr. Chairperson: Shall the item pass--pass. 16.1 Administration and Finance (f) Management Information Services (2) Other Expenditures $304,600--pass.

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The committee will recess for five minutes or so.

The committee recessed at 4:10 p.m.

The committee resumed at 4:19 p.m.

Mr. Chairperson: The committee will come to order.

Mr. Gerry McAlpine (Chairperson of the section of the Committee of Supply meeting in Room 254): Mr. Chairman, a motion was moved in the section of the Committee of Supply meeting in Room 254 by the member for Burrows (Mr. Martindale).

The motion reads that the salary for the Minister of Family Services (Mrs. Mitchelson) be reduced to $117.20 per month which is the same as the social assistance rate for children up to age six.

Mr. Chairman, this motion was on a voice vote, and subsequently two members requested that a formal vote be held on this matter.

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Mr. Chairperson: Call in the members.

All sections in Chamber for formal vote.

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Mr. Chairperson: The committee will come to order. A motion was moved in the Section of Committee of Supply meeting in Room 254 by the member for Burrows (Mr. Martindale). The motions reads that the salary for the Minister of Family Services be reduced to $117.20 per month which is the same as the social assistance rate for children up to the age of six.

This motion was defeated on a voice vote, and subsequently two members requested that a formal vote be held on this matter.

A COUNT-OUT VOTE was taken, the result being as follows: Yeas 24, Nays 27.

Mr. Chairperson: The motion is accordingly defeated.

We will now resume the departments that were in operation in the other rooms. This department is the Department of Education.

Mr. Chairperson (Marcel Laurendeau): We are on Resolution 16.2 School Programs (a) Division Administration (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $253,800. At this time we ask the staff to come back in. Did the honourable minister want to introduce her new staff present at this time?

Hon. Linda McIntosh (Minister of Education and Training): Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I have here with me Carolyn Loeppky, who is the ADM for Schools Programs; as well, I have the principal of the Manitoba School for the Deaf, Norma Jean Taylor; and the interpreter accompanying Ms. Taylor is Kevin Klein, who is an interpreter at the Manitoba School for the Deaf. That is the staff who is with me right now. Now, we may, because we have an interpreter, wish to allow a little bit of extra time in terms of the information flowing back and forth.

Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Mr. Chairman, we are looking at a resolution dealing with school programs, and this is a very large area for the department and, of course, one which has shown a considerable increase, particularly in the area of Assessment and Evaluation. When we come to that line, we will be asking some questions about that. I believe the minister has indicated that she is already prepared with some issues on the research on assessment that she wanted to present.

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As we go through this, section (a) deals with the administration, and I wanted to begin this by asking the minister for the actual expenditures in this section of School Programs, that is, 16.2(a). The Estimates that we have in front of us show an increase, not in staff years, but in Other Expenditures. But given the historic pattern of the department in overestimating by $7 million over the last few years the amount it has spent in Education, I wonder if as an example the minister could give us the actuals for this section.

Mrs. McIntosh: Mr. Chairman, I should indicate, first of all, that there is no historic tradition of underspending. That is incorrect. Last year, we were between 1 and 2 percent of our budget spending predictions. The member knows that in any given year we will estimate as accurately as we possibly can what we think our expenditures will be. We try to ensure that we have sufficient funds there to cover all those costs, and we would prefer to err on having the maximum amount we think we are going to require rather than the minimum because we do not wish to run short. This year, for example, we expect to be very close to our budget predictions, very, very close indeed, and last year we were between one and two percentage points under what we thought we would need to spend.

That was basically for two reasons, Mr. Chairman: One, there was a slowdown in the implementation of the blueprint, and that was done at the request of the field through the advice of the minister's advisory committee on the implementation of educational change. I have referred to that committee before. It consists of the Manitoba Teachers' Society, superintendents, school trustees, school business officials, principals, independent schools, public schools, parents and the president of the parents' association, as well as parents at large, as well as educators at large, as well as three departmental people.

That group, which is fairly large, meets every month for half a day. They requested that this committee be formed. I agreed. They requested that I be president. I actually chair the meeting. At their request, representing everybody in education, they asked us to slow down the process, which we have done, which meant then, of course, that we did not need to expend all the money we had set aside to pay for that rapid implementation. This was not only acceptable to the field but desired by the field.

The other reason that there is an underexpenditure is that we have, in terms of hiring new staff to fulfill some of these functions, a very competitive process that has taken longer to go through--the money took long enough to go through that the money was not required at the early stages of the competitive process but rather at the end.

Now the member made mention she wanted some actual figures, and I am sorry that I did not quite catch what actual expenditures she is seeking, but I think that background may help set in perspective that there is no historic tradition of underspending; there is a very careful and close watching of the dollars. We try wherever we can not to overspend, and certainly if we do not need to expend all the money that we have set aside, we will not spend it just for the sake of spending it because that would be a unwise, imprudent and irresponsible thing to do.

Ms. Friesen: Well, we have discussed this historic underspending or overestimating, however the minister wants to present it, at the beginning of Estimates, and I pointed out at that time that there is indeed a historic pattern which shows a $7-million variance from the estimated amount in 1996, a $10-million variance in 1995, $7 million in '94, and '93, $7 million. It seems to be a pattern there to me, but the pattern had changed in 1992, as we go further back. The variance, then, was only $2 million, and the year before it had been a $1-million overspending or underestimating, however the minister wants to look at it. So there does seem to me to be a pattern there.

When I raised it earlier, the minister, I do not believe, mentioned the slowdown of the blueprint or the issues of the time needed for staffing for particular functions. The answers I got then dealt with the difficulty of estimating, at any one point in time, the number of students who would be coming into the system, the difficulty of estimating the number of students who might be coming from a reserve or who might be coming from military school. So I wonder if we are talking at cross-purposes here, because there seems to be a different explanation that is being given now, but that is just a reply to the minister's initial statement.

The question I had asked was, because of the pattern that I saw and that I had raised at the beginning of Estimates, I was looking in certain areas, but not in all areas, for the actuals that actually were expended. The minister did provide--she tabled a response of last year of one year, although in fact I earlier had asked for an explanation of the long-term pattern of the department, but I appreciate that tabling of the one year. So my purpose in asking for the actuals in School Programs is as one example, and I would like to do it in other areas, but not in every area, of how those estimates are made and what the actual expenditures are.

Mrs. McIntosh: Mr. Chairman, I may not have time to give the complete answer now if we are stopping for private members' hour, but I can begin the response and I have a lot of information that I would like to conclude with next time.

I say, first of all, that there has not been a pattern. The member, in her response--I felt a bit of chastisement there for having given some indications as to what possible causes might have been for the variances, which, I feel, is really quite unfair, given that at the time when she asked the question, we indicated we did not have the appropriate staff people here, that we could hazard some guesses as to why there might be variations and that we would give her some actual reasons for the variances when we have the appropriate staff member here.

What the member has just done is made me want to make absolutely certain that we have line-by-line accuracy before we let her veer off line again in the future. But I will give the answer for her next question.

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Mr. Chairperson: The hour now being 5 p.m., time for private members' hour.

Call in the Speaker. Committee rise.