Madam Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the public gallery where we have this afternoon sixteen Grade 11 students from Shaftesbury High under the direction of Mr. Steve Peers. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable First Minister (Mr. Filmon). On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you this afternoon.

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, my question is to the First Minister (Mr. Filmon). We have raised the issue of waiting lists before, and the government has only in the past announced a pre-election funding of money to deal with the waiting lists for tests and the waiting lists for procedures here in the province of Manitoba, and this was prior to 1995. Since that, we have been getting calls from our constituents, calls from Manitobans dealing with the long waiting lists in the province of Manitoba, and a lot of them are a result of the cutbacks made by the Filmon government, the government opposite, and the resulting lack of operating staff for our needed procedures and diagnostic equipment here in the province.

I would like to ask the Premier: will he have a long-term systemic program to deal with waiting lists here in the province of Manitoba, or are we going to just have some more short-term announcements in a pre-election way to deal with this really tragic situation for many Manitoba families?

Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, first of all, I would think we agree on both sides of the House that where waiting lists for any procedures in our health care system get to be longer than what would be medically acceptable or certainly are longer than what would be viewed as a convenient wait, that it is a tragedy and it has to be addressed. One of the fundamental issues in addressing waiting lists, I would suggest to the Leader of the Opposition, has been often the way in which we organize the system, not even in terms of the funding for it but the organization of it, and having the Winnipeg Hospital Authority in place has given us a vehicle to be able to co-ordinate our variety of programming, particularly diagnostics, and reduce waiting lists in a much more effective manner. We have made some announcements to date; we have others that are coming very shortly as we work out some details, and our goal that we share with him is eliminating these waiting lists on a long-term basis, just not on a short-term one.

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Mr. Doer: I am surprised the Minister of Health is so critical of the Premier who has been in charge of the organization of the Department of Health for the last eight or nine years. I am surprised that he could be so critical of the Premier who has had three ministers of Health and has been in charge of this so-called lack of organization that has just been spoken of by the Minister of Health. In fact, they promised a reorganization in '92, '93, '94, a short-term election announcement in '95, and, again, waiting list after waiting list.

I would like to ask the--[interjection] Well, if the Deputy Premier (Mr. Downey), the Ed McMahon of this Chamber, would like to be quiet, perhaps I could pose my question.

I would like to ask the Premier (Mr. Filmon): can he explain to me and Mr. Yakel, a constituent in the Elmwood community, why he was told in May of '97 that he would have to wait until May of 1998 to have cataract surgery that is absolutely essential for him to have? Can the Premier answer why this Mr. Yakel has to wait one year for this procedure?

Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, these are very, very serious matters, and it is very easy for the Leader of the Opposition to get up and say the comments he did. This Premier and this government have been very dedicated in 10 years to making fundamental change in our system, and every step of the way that we have attempted to bring about major reform when various interests within the system have opposed that, often for their own particular viewpoint, because it might affect the way in which they operate within the system, members opposite, and, by the way, not always the critic, but members opposite, in particular the Leader of the Opposition, have always been there to take their side. In fact on many occasions, if we had followed what the Leader of the Opposition had suggested, our system would be in a terrible state with no hope of correction.

If the Leader of the Opposition would like to provide the details of that particular matter to my office, I would be delighted to look into it. As the member may know, often the priorities on surgery, Madam Speaker, are determined by the physicians themselves. We would be very happy to look into that matter for the Leader of the Opposition.

Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Madam Speaker, Marion Hofley of Winnipeg is a dialysis patient, or was a dialysis patient, at the St. Boniface Hospital, where she received excellent care.

I would like to ask the Minister of Health why it is that she is now being forced to go by taxi three times a week to Morden for dialysis. How can this government justify their ineptitude in not planning ahead and not providing adequate dialysis facilities, and spending $1,000 a week on taxi fare to send patients from Winnipeg to Morden for dialysis? What is this minister going to do to cut down this waiting list and help this senior citizen who is facing great hardships? She leaves after three o'clock every day, gets back after midnight, and she is facing dialysis for the rest of her life.

Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, I will tell the member exactly why that in fact happens and what we are doing to correct that, because I do not find that an acceptable situation either as Minister of Health.

First of all, for one thing, the number of dialysis patients continues to increase annually by approximately 8 percent, so we have had a growing pressure on our system. Secondly, within our system, Madam Speaker, one of its, I think, shortcomings, from the point of view of the question from the member for Burrows, is that in fact all new patients coming on the system, as I understand it from my inquiries, are required to be dealt with first in the Winnipeg system, which puts additional pressure on them before they can move out. So the difficulty has been, as we have had an increase in dialysis patients, we have had to ask Winnipeg residents to go to rural stations to give us some manoeuvring room within the system.

However, Madam Speaker, I, like members opposite and members on this side of the House, have asked questions about how we in fact organize this system, because we are continually putting more money into it--some $700,000 for a new program in the Interlake. I have asked the Winnipeg Hospital Authority to take over this particular program for the province, and they are developing the plans to do so currently.

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Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River): Madam Speaker, because of long waiting lists in this province, many seniors are suffering unnecessary pain. Mrs. Winnie Russenholt of Minitonas suffers from arthritis and as a result had to have a knee replaced. She had to wait two years until she finally got her operation, in October of '96, in Yorkton, Saskatchewan. She now needs her other knee replaced.

Will the minister agree that this is unacceptable to have people waiting two years for knee and hip replacements, and will he ensure that Mrs. Russenholt and others will not have to wait for two years for this kind of surgery? Will he agree not to play politics or election promises with this but have it addressed immediately?

Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, we just took steps in reorganizing our system within Winnipeg where with a declining number of births, from 13,000 down to 10,000, we managed to save by changing a function at Grace Hospital, which members of the New Democratic Party, the member for St. James (Ms. Mihychuk), opposed. They opposed that change.

It allows us to add this year alone an additional 180-plus procedures, exactly for the kind of person, exactly for the kind of constituent that the member for Swan River is talking about. We moved money from obstetrics into orthopedic surgery, hips and knees, at the Grace, and next year will save us $1.8 million by making that change that allows us to increase the program even further, but let the public remember that members of the New Democratic Party urged me not to make that change, Madam Speaker, or any change.

Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): Madam Speaker, my constituent Mike Lawrence, who has been calling the Minister of Health's office on behalf of his grandmother, has endured with her two hip surgeries due to falls she survived when she had mild strokes, strokes that went undiagnosed for over a year because what she really needed was an ultrasound to determine the extent of what was causing the strokes.

I want to ask the Minister of Health: how can he explain to Mike Lawrence and his grandmother, who has endured two unnecessary hip surgeries, why she could not get an ultrasound in a timely basis and why she would have to go to Grafton, North Dakota, to pay for this service rather than having it in her home community?

Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, two points to be made: first of all, anytime there is a need for an emergent diagnostic procedure that, in fact, takes place, the doctor can arrange it. If it is not emergent--the doctors currently control that system. Now, in fairness to everyone in this system, as long as we have continued to have our diagnostics controlled by a number of institutions throughout Winnipeg without good co-ordination, we are not getting the best use out of that system in my view, and that is why, with the Winnipeg Hospital Authority--I have asked them to develop the plan, which they are doing, to take over diagnostic services eventually, to streamline that operation and get best use of our resources.

But let us remember one thing when it comes to hip and knee replacement. The move we did to add additional capacity in our system was opposed by her party.

Ms. Diane McGifford (Osborne): Dorothy Webster, formerly of Fred Tipping Place in Riverview and a woman living with Alzheimer's was panelled for care in the fall of 1996 and quite understandably wanted to move to the Riverview Health Centre. Her family was told in 1996, in the fall, that there was a one-year waiting list. In spring, Mrs. Webster moved to Central Park Lodge on the understanding that her position on the waiting list at Riverview would not be compromised. In the fall of 1997, her family was again told there was a year's waiting list. The more things change, the more they stay the same, Madam Speaker.

I want to ask the minister today if he plans to wait until the next election, as his party has done before, until he takes action on the waiting list at Riverview Health Centre, which according to the Riverview Health News opened a state-of-the-art facility on May 27. I would be happy to share the publication with the minister if he does not know about it.

Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, is the member for Osborne asking me as Minister of Health to actually make the determination of which citizens go into which facilities? This government invested significant money in rebuilding the Riverview Centre, removing the old municipals, replacing--that facility was there. I was part of the opening for that facility. It has added a state-of-the-art long-term care facility. We are currently working on other plans to be in the ground in some additional--I believe an additional 200 beds in the spring that was announced as part of our capital program earlier. We are looking at ways of expanding our long-term care facility. But if the member opposite is asking me to intervene in waiting lists, to pick a specific match for people in a facility, that would be unfair if I did that.

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Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): My question is for the Premier. Last week I raised the issue of a person's right to feel safe in their own home, and today I would pose the question to the Premier. Again, today we have an individual that is 91 years old that is in critical condition in one of our hospitals because he was brutally shoved down a flight of stairs, Madam Speaker. In 1995, there were 5,841 home break-ins.

My question is to the Premier. Would he agree that, because of the number of break-ins, we have marginalized the seriousness of this crime, and now is the time in which we start getting more serious with the break-in problem epidemic throughout the province?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, I concur wholeheartedly with the member opposite that it is unacceptable for the kinds of crimes that we are seeing, particularly home break-ins. I think the member knows that our government has been contributing an extra $2 million per year for additional police officers, some 40 additional officers for the City of Winnipeg to help them combat crime and to try and address many of these issues. Regardless of what statistics tell us, even the most recent ones that suggest that crime rates are down and that the police are able to address this to a greater extent, it is still not acceptable that occurrences like this happen, and we certainly--I know the Minister of Justice (Mr. Toews) will be looking very carefully at it and discussing with the various law enforcement agencies further measures to try and combat this type of crime.

Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, my question is to the Premier. Will he recognize that a total aggregate of nine months is what the average is for someone who breaks into a house, which means they could be out within weeks after breaking into a house--is in fact not an effective deterrent? Will he agree with that, and what actions, if he does agree with it, is he prepared to take?

Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, I am informed that the Criminal Code says that people can receive up to a life sentence for a break-in of this nature, a violent break-in, and if the normal sentence averages nine months, then obviously that is something that we do not have a control over as a government. I believe that is a matter that should be pursued, and I believe the Minister of Justice (Mr. Toews), in conjunction with his colleagues, expressed concern that there needs to be further action with respect to Ottawa with respect to dealing more harshly with these kinds of crimes.

Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, given the Premier's response, will he then instruct his Minister of Justice to aggressively pursue the issue within his department in terms of appeals, if need be, in order to ensure that the incarceration is in fact a valid way--using as a deterrent in order to try to address the whole issue of break-ins and particularly home invasions?

Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, I think the member is suggesting that the punishment ought better to fit the crime, and certainly I cannot disagree with him on it. I know that the Minister of Justice (Mr. Toews) certainly concurs with that position.

Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): A question to the Premier, not unrelated to risk factors leading to crime. A four-year-old constituent communicates mainly with gestures but was rejected from the Health Sciences Centre communication disorders program because by the time she would go to the top of the two-year waiting list of about 450 children, she would have to go to the bottom of the school division's waiting list, and her parents cannot pay up to $3,600 a year for the many uninsured private speech programs that the government's waiting list has now created.

My question is to the Premier. Why has his government rejected recommendations from 10 years of reports and has instead insisted on two-tiered opportunities for life for children like this four-year-old who must now enter the school with higher costs and with the stigma of a communication disorder?

Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, the member for St. Johns does bring a very serious issue to this House. It is one of which myself and my colleagues on the human services committee of cabinet are very much aware and appreciate that we have some work to do in overcoming some of those issues on co-ordination and resource. We hope to be able to do that in the coming months--but it is a very serious issue.

Mr. Oscar Lathlin (The Pas): Madam Speaker, about a month ago, four weeks ago, I phoned the Minister of Health from The Pas to tell him about an individual from the reserve there about his problem of getting into the St. Boniface Hospital. This individual had travelled seven times to Winnipeg to get open-heart surgery, and seven times he was returned to The Pas because there was no bed for him at the hospital. When I phoned the minister's office I was advised by his staff that they would phone the constituent right to his home to solve the problem. My question to the minister this afternoon is: what follow-up has his office taken since that call that I made to him about four or six weeks ago?

Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, first of all, the underlying issue with respect to heart surgery is they are--[interjection] Just if the member would give me the opportunity to finish and give him an answer--I would appreciate if the member would give me the opportunity to answer because this is a very serious question. We all have constituents who come to us from time to time who are waiting for heart surgery and are scheduled and are bumped. A lot of that has to do with where they rate on a priority list. If an emergency happens where someone who is not in an emergent situation, their surgeon may be required to do an emergency heart surgery, and that results in the bumping. Seven times is a large number of bumpings; I do not argue with that fact whatsoever.

Madam Speaker, the setting of that priority list is done by the physicians involved, if I understand it correctly. I do not interfere in that list, nor should I. One other--[interjection] Well, the member asks why there is a waiting list. It is because we have only so many surgeons, and if an emergency happens, those surgeons are required to perform surgery on someone who may just recently have undergone cardiac arrest or is in an emergent situation. Someone who is an urgent may be bumped; that has always been the case with heart surgery, despite what the member for Burrows (Mr. Martindale) says from his seat.

Ms. MaryAnn Mihychuk (St. James): Madam Speaker, today I raise the issues that were raised by Dr. Michael Bass, and I table the letter.

On June 26, 1997, Dr. Michael Bass, who practises obstetrics and gynecology at the Health Sciences Centre, wrote to the Minister of Health. In this letter he states that the waiting list for gynecological ultrasound is eight months and that for obstetrical ultrasound it is three months and that these waiting times are unacceptable. He predicts in the letter in June that Manitoba will lose quality physicians if they do not have the tools to do a proper job.

Madam Speaker, my question to the minister: given that, despite Dr. Bass's letters and warnings, waiting lists have grown and that Manitoba has lost over 40 quality physicians, when will we see a comprehensive strategy to deal with this unacceptable situation which is the worst in Canada?

Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, many times in this House--and the member's question is a very valid one and a very serious question--we have discussed the fundamental issues that are here in place, why we have some of these difficulties. The work that my predecessor did, the member for Brandon West (Mr. McCrae), in working through a plan to deal with those issues, which I now have the responsibility to implement, I think it is very clear that one of the fundamental reasons we have difficulties in many of our lists is because we have had up to nine institutions, each running its own field, making decisions and not always in a co-ordinated manner. When I looked into issues like diagnostics, for example, I found a great divergence in the waiting list, I found the lack of a central ability to co-ordinate. These are things that were identified and also brought to my attention by the member for Brandon West. Now we have that vehicle which is available to us in the Winnipeg Hospital Authority, and as one of the tasks that I have charged them with, that is, to look at running centrally our diagnostic system, they are in the process of putting together a detailed plan to do that, which I hope we can start giving effect to in the very near future.

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Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Madam Speaker, it was interesting the other week when the Premier gave his state of the province address, he did not spend very much time talking about the effects of nine and a half years of neglect of our health care system that has seen people like Mrs. Cadwell, a constituent of mine, waiting extensively for hip surgery, or Phyllis Laine [phonetic], a former constituent, who has been in the Seven Oaks Hospital since mid-May. Normally you are supposed to be in this particular ward for no more than 30 days, but on December 8, 1997, she is still waiting to get into a personal care home. By the way, she was referred to the personal care home in Thompson, but there is no personal care home.

I would like to ask: if the Premier (Mr. Filmon) is not going to deal with that, will the minister admit, as he did last week on home care, that the real problem is that we have had nine and a half years of neglect and that the government's cutbacks in health care are now impacting on some very extensive waiting lists? They are affecting many individual Manitobans.

Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, it is with great regret that, while the member for Thompson sat on this side of the House in government, his party was unable to build a personal care home in Thompson and neglected the people of his community and have left it to us to work on that result. Members of the New Democratic Party cannot have it both ways. We on this side of the House, despite very tough budget times, like every other government in Canada, have had to deal with some tough issues over the last number of years. We have still maintained significant funding for our health care system, each year increasing budgets.

But what is most interesting about today is last week in this House we had members of the New Democratic Party arguing strenuously that we should continue to overspend in our food system in our hospitals, that we should continue to subsidize restaurant food in our hospital cafeterias to $2.5 million and then now we should spend more money in different areas. You cannot have it both ways. Do you waste money subsidizing cafeteria meals like they would propose, or do you divert it over to where you need it? This party stands for diverting it. They want to spend it. I need those dollars to deliver health care.

Mr. Gerard Jennissen (Flin Flon): Madam Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Health.

Is the minister aware that the internationally accepted standard for waiting time for radiation therapy is under four weeks and that Mr. Gordon Fidler from Cranberry Portage was forced to wait an incredibly stressful 14 weeks--98 days--before the first radiation treatment for his cancer could begin?

Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, I am not aware of the specifics, but I can tell you that we have announced--if the member opposite is not aware, we, along with the Cancer Treatment and Research Foundation, have committed to a $42-million new state-of-the-art facility that doubles our capacity. I understand they will be in the ground very early in the new year. We also recently approved just short of an additional million dollars for that same facility so that they could recruit six additional oncologists and four additional technical associates, which they are in the process of doing currently. Part of their difficulty in meeting service is recruiting that additional personnel, but I want to assure Manitobans that the dollars necessary to do it have been approved and are in place, and they are in the process of recruiting the expertise that they need to continue to deliver the program to Manitobans on an increasing basis.

Mr. Tim Sale (Crescentwood): Madam Speaker, while we are talking here, more than 500 elderly Manitobans, including Mrs. Beatrice Wirth, are sitting in hospital beds inappropriately waiting for placement in nursing homes. Beatrice Wirth has been in Victoria Hospital not since May of '97 but since May of '96, some 18 months, waiting for placement in Riverview or a Level 4 nursing home.

Can the Minister of Health tell this House why any Manitoban should have to wait in the wrong place for 18 months to get an appropriate placement when she is suffering from a serious disease?

Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, first of all, waiting lists for personal care homes are not new. Being short of personal care home beds is not new. In fact, I remember when members opposite were in power, we had waiting lists and demand for personal care homes.

The fact is with an aging population--[interjection] Members opposite, if they are interested in more than subsidizing cafeterias, Madam Speaker, I would hope you would call them to order so they can hear the answer. The fact of the matter is one of the changes in most of our hospitals is that we have actually made reorganizations of wards to accommodate people who are waiting when they could adjust programming for people who are long-term care patients who are waiting for placement.

We have nearly 300 people in our Winnipeg hospital system today who are in that category. We have made changes in wards to be able to accommodate them, so the member opposite should not make it sound as if the person is being neglected. They are being cared for.

Madam Speaker, we are very much committed. We have, I believe, 200 beds that were committed in the last capital commitment in the spring. We are working on additional bed space, will be in the ground in some--and we will hope to continue to meet this need as best we can.

Mr. Gregory Dewar (Selkirk): Madam Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Health. Mr. Richard Epp from Selkirk has been told by his doctor that he may have to wait up to a year for a sonogram to help determine the cause of a stroke he suffered in August of this year. My question is to the minister: what is he prepared to do to help Mr. Epp and others, and why will Mr. Epp have to wait for a year for this medical test? I am prepared to table a letter from Mr. Epp.

Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, I think I have addressed this in previous questions about--[interjection] What we are doing in centralizing--[interjection] Well, the member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton), I would expect would know better. One of the difficulties that my predecessor identified was the way in which we manage our health care system, that is, a minister. Ministers have very little direct control over the way in which the system operates. We have seen that over and over again. One of the benefits of regionalization, which many members opposite have criticized and condemned, is it gives us the vehicle to be able to deliver services more efficiently.

Madam Speaker, what I find so ironical about today is members of the New Democratic Party have criticized this government in supporting changes within the system that save some $3 million a year on food services, prevent the loss of $2.5 million on subsidizing cafeteria food, dollars that we need to do exactly what they are asking for. So what is their choice? Subsidized--

Madam Speaker: Order, please.

Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): On a point of order, Beauchesne's Citation 417 is very clear that "Answers to questions should be as brief as possible, deal with the matter raised and should not provoke debate." Not only is the minister out of order, but this is the 12th question we have asked about the impact of close to 10 years of neglect of our health care system, in this case a very specific question about a constituent of the member for Selkirk. I would like to ask, Madam Speaker, that you ask the Minister of Health to answer the very serious questions we are raising on behalf of Manitobans today.

Madam Speaker: The honourable Minister of Health, on the same point of order.

Mr. Praznik: I was just simply pointing out that we need the savings in places like food services to pay for the care that members opposite are requesting.

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Madam Speaker: Order, please. On the point of order raised by the honourable member for Thompson, I would remind the honourable Minister of Health that indeed he should keep his responses specific to the question asked and not provoke debate.

Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Madam Speaker, children in some of Manitoba's public schools with suspected learning disabilities are having to wait a year or more for proper assessment, while their parents are being advised that they should take their son or daughter for a private assessment at approximately $1,200. I would like to ask the Minister of Education if she would table a report on education waiting lists in assessment across the province, and could she tell us what she thinks is an acceptable period of waiting for these children?

Hon. Linda McIntosh (Minister of Education and Training): Madam Speaker, if the member would be kind enough to provide me with the details of her allegations, I would be pleased to look into them for her. Saying "some people say" is not really giving me enough to go on, so if she can provide me with the details I would be pleased to provide the--look into the--

Madam Speaker: Order, please.

Ms. Friesen: If you would direct the Minister of Education yet again to answer the question that I asked her, which was: would she prepare and table a report on the waiting lists in educational assessment across the province?

Madam Speaker: The honourable Minister of Education and Training, on the same point of order.

Mrs. McIntosh: With respect, the member in her question said that there were some people who had some specific concerns, and I thought she had asked me to report to her on them, but without knowing what they are, it is hard to report.

If she is looking for general information on waiting lists in assessments and so on, I would be pleased to provide her with--I do not have a formal report, but we certainly do have a lot of information on early intervention, early identification, assessments, Level I, Level II, Level III. Those types of areas are known to us. Divisions report--

Madam Speaker: Order, please. May I deal with the point of order raised before the minister completes her response? Which I believe she has just done. Given that the minister now has responded to the point of order, I guess my only ruling is that there was no point of order, given she has now made the appropriate response.

Mr. George Hickes (Point Douglas): Madam Speaker, in September of this year, the government announced that $76,500 would be spent to make more staff available to operate bone density testing machines in order that patients on a two-year waiting list would receive tests before Christmas. On September 26, the Minister of Health was quoted in the Winnipeg Sun as stating: once we have cleaned out the backlog, it will enable us not to create a new one.

Madam Speaker, the money has since been spent, additional staffing for machines has since been reduced, and we have learned that once again there are several hundred patients on a new waiting list for bone density tests. When will the minister stop implementing patchwork solutions, and develop a comprehensive waiting-list strategy?

Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, I understand some of the last patients on the Manitoba Clinic side will be receiving their bone density scan within days or very, very shortly in Manitoba. We have managed to eliminate that part of the list, and we want to ensure that we do not have another list grow. That is certainly unacceptable.

We are doing two things: first of all, the protocol on use is in the process of being finalized, because obviously there are some people for whom this is a good thing to do, others it is not. So that is being developed. Secondly, the resources are being identified to be able to carry on, on a far better basis than we have in the past.

Madam Speaker, let us not forget that when we first looked at this, one of our initial proposals was for nearly $450,000 that would have eliminated the list by June of next year, and by doing some looking around and being innovative, we did it for $76,000 and got it done by Christmas. So I do not always accept what comes out of the system as being the route to go.

Mr. Conrad Santos (Broadway): Madam Speaker, in our province, there are a number of people in pain, represented by Miss N, who is a 57-year-old woman having a lower-back and leg problem. She is still working, and somehow she managed to have a CAT scan arranged for her, but it will not happen until April 22, 1998.

Can the honourable minister tell me what to tell this woman in case she cannot work any more because of persistent back pain?

Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, I think the member should tell her that it is important that we have the resources. First of all, we are making the change in how we have organized the system so that we get the best use of our equipment, use it at the maximum amount of time, and have a central co-ordination, and if we need to have additional financial resources, it is sometimes a matter of prioritizing.

I am not trying to play politics with this at all, but when members opposite come to this House and they say to us we should continue to spend money on areas of health care that buy no health value when we do not have to, it takes dollars right out of the areas where we need the care. The member for Broadway should know that by making those choices, he is saying to that lady that it is more important, and I do not mean to make light of it, but more important to have a subsidized meal in a cafeteria than have dollars available for those additional resources. That is not where we stand, Madam Speaker.

Mr. Clif Evans (Interlake): Madam Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Health.

One of my constituents, Mrs. Verna Hryhorchuk, along with hundreds of people in the province who suffer with multiple sclerosis, could be helped by taking Betaseron or its companion drug, Copaxone. When we first raised this question with this government, the then Minister of Health indicated he would not want any bureaucratic delays. Will the Minister of Health tell us why his government continues to hide behind this bureaucracy and why people who need this drug are continuing to wait for coverage?

Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, I may have missed when the member for the Interlake garnered his M.D., but the committee that reviews these drugs and their effectiveness recommended to me that we not accept it. So, if the member is suggesting that I move very quickly to accept their recommendation and not deal with it, then that is fine. But what I did say at that time and after meeting with them and the member for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak), who I must compliment has worked on this issue with me, I think who appreciates the difficulty of this issue, we both recognized that there was other additional information. I have some questions about the process by which information came to that committee.

I am pleased to report that I have met with that committee. We have discussed some ways of improving that process, and I have asked them to take another look at this, including ensuring that those people who have been researching on the product here, I think at the MS clinic--I look to the member for Kildonan who was part of that meeting--also have an opportunity to put their findings to that same committee, and I will await their next consideration of this particular product.

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Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, is it not funny after nine and a half years of Tory mismanagement of health the government is still choosing to blame the previous government for its difficulty? The same government talks about $2.5 million in expenditures in cafeterias, many of which have been privatized, and yet they are spending $100 million on SmartHealth. They wasted over $5 million on Connie Curran. The Premier (Mr. Filmon) said they were going to save $10 million on home care. That is where the money went--in Tory mismanagement of our health care resources, which is why we have the waiting list.

My question is: why did the previous Minister of Health have $500,000 to reduce waiting lists a month before the last election and reduce waiting lists on hip and knee replacements, CAT scans, ultrasounds and MRIs, and this government has done nothing for two years while the lists that we indicated today have grown and grown and grown, much to the hardship of Manitobans, every one of whom we represent, waiting on long waiting lists? How dare they do that?

Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): How can members opposite come with that kind of indignation when they oppose almost every change that is needed to make the system run better?

Madam Speaker, when we talked about taking money out of a program at the Grace in obstetrics that we did not need and putting it into hips and knees, the member for St. James (Ms. Mihychuk) opposed it. When we come forward to try to get a better operating of our food system to free up dollars to put it into those areas, members opposite oppose it. They want everything for everybody, but the one thing they cannot do is run government or a health care system. They cannot deliver. Every change that is needed for the future that we stand for they oppose. They want better diagnostics. You need an information system to be able to co-ordinate that. They oppose it.

This government is very much committed to health care. We have expanded in area after area, but one thing is for certain, we will always put money for health rather than subsidize cafeterias any day of the week.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for Dauphin, with one very short question.

Mr. Stan Struthers (Dauphin): Madam Speaker, my constituent Ken McCartney from Dauphin has been waiting and still is waiting for an angiogram.

Why will this Minister of Health not help him?

Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, the priority on those procedures is dealt with by the physicians. [interjection] You know, I am not a physician--

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable Minister of Health, to quickly complete his response.

Mr. Praznik: There is not a health care system in Canada where anyone who requests heart surgery today gets it tomorrow, unless it is an emergency. There is not a province where that happens. You know it is almost--it is sad to raise the expectation to people out there who watch this on their televisions that that is ever possible. Heart surgeries are done on a priority list. The doctors involved set those priorities on the needs of the patients.

If the member would really like to help his constituent, he should make sure that that constituent updates his physician on his need.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. Time for Oral Questions has expired.