Madam Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the public gallery where we have with us this afternoon vingt-quatre étudiants de la douzième année du Collège Jeanne Sauvé sous la direction de Monsieur Bernard DesAutels.

[Translation]

twenty-four Grade 12 students from Collège Jeanne Sauvé under the direction of Mr. Bernard DesAutels.

[English]

This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Seine River (Mrs. Dacquay).

Also in the public gallery we have twenty-nine Grade 9 students from Pierre Radisson Collegiate under the direction of Mrs. Marj Beddall and Mrs. Lesley Sisco. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for St. Vital (Mrs. Render).

On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you this afternoon.

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, victims of the flood in the Red River Valley were very disappointed when this government and this Premier (Mr. Filmon) refused to apologize for his statements about people that lived on a flood-prone area. People are also quite concerned that over hundreds of families are still living outside of their homes in the Red River Valley, and when you compare that to the 1950s, all families were returned to their homes or alternative homes by Christmas.

I would like to ask the government: how can they justify building a Brunkild dike within four days and still have hundreds of families living outside of their homes before Christmas?

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Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Natural Resources): Madam Speaker, I do not think there is any question about the devastation of the flood that went through the Red River Valley this spring, and I think the Leader of the Opposition certainly raises an issue that we are concerned about as well. But I would only remind him that in terms of floodproofing, for example, in the 1979 flood event--which was one of the most recent high-water events--the flood protection program did not even begin until the year after the flood had occurred. In fact, I believe that the facts will bear out that we are between a half and three-quarters of the way there in terms of floodproofing and helping the residents of the valley recover.

For those who are not yet in their homes, they certainly have our greatest sympathy and concern, but we want to work with them to make sure that as they make their decisions on where they wish to rebuild or under what circumstances they want to return to their previous yard sites, that we have in fact helped them in the maximum way and also prepared them for flood protection for the future.

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, this government issues the words but does not follow it up with the deeds.

We are aware of some of the people who have lost their homes being cut off their rental allowances from the EMO department on December 24. We are further aware of some families that have been told by one department of government, the Department of Environment, that their home cannot be lived in and then been told by the EMO department that they must in fact reside back in their previous home prior to the flooding.

I would like to know how many people are being cut off in December, right up to December 24, by this government. How many families who have lost their homes have not been relocated and are being cut off by this heartless government in terms of their allowances here in Manitoba?

Hon. Frank Pitura (Minister of Government Services): Madam Speaker, our government has been working with the local municipalities in terms of identifying people who require temporary accommodation and are listing and abiding by their concerns with regard to temporary accommodations and, in most of the cases, if not all of the cases, are accommodating those people in those temporary accommodations that they choose.

We do have a number who are prepared to spend some time in transition between temporary accommodation and moving back into their homes, so these people have made that choice, but in all cases we have been working with the local authorities in being able to accommodate people who are in temporary accommodation.

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Mr. Doer: Madam Speaker, that was not the question.

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): I have a further question to this government. Many people who have lost their homes and other victims of the flood have been quite concerned about the Department of Natural Resources' own measures in terms of cutbacks in their own Department of Natural Resources. The residents of Ste. Agathe have presented a brief to the commission that speaks to the fact that only one-quarter of the staff are left in the Department of Natural Resources Water Resources branch, from that of 1979. The City of Winnipeg, in their presentation, further amplifies what we have been saying in this House about cutbacks to the monitoring staff in the Department of Natural Resources and calls on the government to reinstate those resources here in the province.

Given the fact that some people will be paying between $80,000 and $90,000 to floodproof their homes in the future, they are calling on this government to reinstate the Water Resources staff in this year's budget, which the government is debating now, prior to the Water Commission reporting in June of 1988. Will this government now reinstate the staff that the people in the Red River Valley depend on for the monitoring of our waters and forecasts here in Manitoba?

Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Natural Resources): Well, Madam Speaker, it is quite legitimate to ask whether or not the department will be maintaining adequate forecasting capabilities, and that is one of the things that the Leader of the Opposition was referring to, but I think he also knows full well that we have been attempting to require the federal government to continue with their support of the water monitoring system in this province, and what I have said on the record several times, including in this House, that no matter what happens with the negotiations, we will be maintaining the ability to monitor and forecast within the valley primarily but in other locations across the province.

Secondly, the member, probably unintentionally, indicated that we would not be hearing from the Water Commission until June. The fact is we have asked them for an earlier interim report so that if they have recommendations to give us that we can act on immediately and put into place quickly, that we receive that advice and we will then act on it appropriately.

Ms. Diane McGifford (Osborne): Madam Speaker, as the Minister of Health knows, victims of hepatitis C, acquired through tainted blood or blood products, have and continue to suffer the results of an irresponsible blood supply system. If the current situation prevails, many of these individuals may die before compensation becomes a reality. I want to ask the Minister of Health today to tell this House if his government will offer compensation to the victims of hepatitis C acquired through tainted blood.

Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, the member for Osborne raises a very important issue, one of which the provincial ministers of Health entertained some discussion at our meeting in Fredericton, a matter of which I intend to have some discussion with my western colleagues when we meet shortly.

Madam Speaker, let us not forget that the prime responsibility for the delivery and care of the product rests of course with the provider of the product, that having been the Red Cross, and also very importantly with the regulator of the whole system, which is the national government. I think that is why we have seen the federal Minister of Health talking about, in fact, a compensation system, because there is a recognition of responsibility by those who regulate and operate the system.

We as provinces, in essence, have very much been the purchaser of that particular product. The discussion or the answer that I share with the member today is one I very much had in my discussions with representatives of the Hemophilia Society in Manitoba. I think there is a recognition that the prime responsibility rests with those governments, and it is a matter of ensuring that compensation, if it is going to come, is paid by those governments and those operators.

Ms. McGifford: Surely we have responsibility for purchased services. I want to ask the minister if he will support the work of the Canadian Hemophilia Society by endorsing the compensation resolution which the Quebec Legislature has passed unanimously and by committing to take this resolution to the January meeting of Health ministers.

Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, first of all, let me say that I have had a number of discussions with representatives of the Hemophilia Society, Hemophilia Manitoba. We have shared information in terms of our different ways we face this issue, because I recognize very fully that the people who have contracted hepatitis C are looking for compensation. I do not for one moment doubt or in any way take away from that request.

The fundamental issue, and I would think members opposite would appreciate this, is where does the responsibility lie, and with the people with whom the responsibility lies so should flow the compensation. If the member is asking for Manitoba to move unilaterally, and I do not hear her saying that today, but if she is asking us to move unilaterally and provide a compensation system, that would simply take away from those who have that prime responsibility, the regulator, the national government, and those who provided the product.

So I think we share the same goal, but it is important to appreciate how we get there, because if we are paying compensation for which we do not have a responsibility, that takes dollars away from other areas that require them.

Ms. McGifford: I want to ask the minister: would he please support the resolution which only asks him to agree to negotiate with his federal counterpart? Will he please at least agree to do this?

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Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, the resolution in itself is really not the important issue here. The issue is how do we get, if we in fact are going to get there, to a compensation package. Members opposite must appreciate, particularly the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer) who sat in cabinet for many years, that when you are negotiating with a national government who has had a tendency to pull the provinces into particular issues and offload their responsibility for their actions, how one handles those negotiations to ensure that the provincial interests are met becomes very, very important.

I say to the honourable member with great sincerity that I am meeting very shortly with my counterparts from across western Canada. These are some of the issues we will be discussing, and the strategy that we develop to see the federal government live up to their responsibilities I think is very important to the success of this. It would be inappropriate for me to support today or see such a resolution come forward outside of our process as strategy develops.

We appreciate the sincerity of the gesture, but I think the issue requires somewhat of a different approach to bring it to a successful conclusion for Manitobans and for hemophiliac sufferers from hepatitis C.

Mr. Eric Robinson (Rupertsland): Yesterday I listened to the Minister of Justice (Mr. Toews) object to questions I have been raising in this House regarding the murder of Carol Marlene Hastings and also the lenient sentence given to her killer, Mr. Dhaliwal, in the court that was heard in Thompson.

The minister, Madam Speaker, accused our members on this side of the House of calling victims' services and the RCMP racist. That could be further from the truth, and he went on to say that even the Oxford House Council indicated that they were not supporting my attempt to appeal the sentence. Chief James Mason of the Oxford House Council is in the gallery this afternoon, and my questions are directed to the Minister of Justice.

Since the family of the late Carol Hastings has stated in that letter that they are not comfortable and receptive to the lenient sentence handed down by the court, will the minister now appeal the sentence?

Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): On December 4, 1997, a member of the RCMP contacted both Thomas and Ethel Okimow in respect of this particular situation, and they advised the constable that people were putting words in their mouths. I note that both the father and mother of the deceased in this case do not speak, write or understand English, and yet the member sends a letter here in the House without any explanation in very detailed English as to a purported position. I think it is important, given that the RCMP have told me that they are not supportive of an appeal, as to where this letter came from. I am not suggesting that the member in any way wrote the letter; I am suggesting that the information that I am receiving is not consistent with what I am receiving here.

Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): On a point of order, Beauchesne Citation 417 is very clear, Madam Speaker, that "Answers should be as brief as possible, deal with the matter raised and should not provoke debate."

Once again this minister is following a tactic that is absolutely reprehensible. He was asked about the appeal. Yesterday he accused the member for Rupertsland and other members of accusing the RCMP and victims' services of being racist. That was never made. We cannot even use the word "racist" in this House because of a ruling that was made some time ago. Now he is questioning the statement made by the family. The member for Rupertsland is a Cree, he speaks Cree, he has spoken to the family. This minister has not done that. He should not criticize the member or the family.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable Minister of Justice, on the same point of order.

Mr. Toews: On the same point of order, the member for The Pas (Mr. Lathlin) in the Question Period where I specifically indicated that members opposite were calling members of the RCMP and the Crown's office racist, and in fact he did. Indeed, the member for Wellington (Ms. Barrett) also joined in those comments, accusing public servants of being racist, and I indicated that at that time.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable government House leader, on the same point of order.

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Hon. James McCrae (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, on the same point of order, I have listened carefully to both honourable members, the member for Rupertsland and the honourable Minister of Justice, and as we have heard many, many times in this House from the Chair in ruling on points of order like the one we have before us today, it seems clear to me that what we have is a difference here, a dispute over the facts surrounding this matter, and I do not believe there is a point of order and suggest you might want to consider it in that light.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. On the point of order raised by the honourable member for Thompson, I thank all honourable members for their advice, and I will take the matter under advisement so that I can review the text of Hansard very, very carefully.

Mr. Ashton: On a new point of order, Madam Speaker, and that is based on the comments that the minister just made on the guise of responding to the point of order.

Madam Speaker, I have before me the Hansard and the questions put forward by the member for Rupertsland from December 2, from December 3 and from December 4. One of those days the minister was in the House--on two of those days. I refer the minister to those. Not once did the member for Rupertsland even mention the RCMP or victims' services, let alone this unacceptable accusation from the minister, and for him now after--and I realize we cannot reference the absence of members from the House, but he has not been in Question Period for close to a week other than yesterday--to make accusations, unfounded accusations against other members is unacceptable. This Minister of Justice should do the responsible thing, should respond to the questions and not engage in those kinds of personal attacks. No one criticized the RCMP or victims' services. The real questions were directed at this minister and the sentence, and that is something we deserve an answer to.

Madam Speaker: The honourable government House leader, on the same point of order.

Mr. McCrae: Madam Speaker, on the renewed point of order, I suggest with respect that the matters raised by the honourable member for Thompson really relate to pretty well the same matter that was the subject of the last point of order and indeed the subject of the questions and the answer. We can debate whether the minister was being responsive to the question as it was put, and indeed I would suggest that he was not out of line in that regard, but that is not what the point of order is about.

The point of order is about the repeated references made by the honourable member for Thompson to Hansard and comments made in this House. You have, Your Honour, already said that you would review this matter, and perhaps the review on the previous point of order probably applies to the second point of order as well, and if that is the case, that is fine. But I suggest that it is appropriate that you review the matter and return to the House with some comments and perhaps a ruling.

Madam Speaker: I thank the honourable members for their advice, and once again, I indeed will take the point of order under advisement. I will review the context of the advice received from all members. I would, however, at this time remind all members speaking to points of order to be specifically relevant to the point of order and not on debate or responses that were or were not given.

Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Rupertsland, with a supplementary question.

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Mr. Robinson: Thank you, Madam Speaker. What the minister is saying then, that victims are wrong and the sentence is right.

Will the minister appeal the sentence?

Mr. Toews: Madam Speaker, as I indicated in my prior answers on this particular question, this was a very difficult case. The Okimow family--indeed 22 members of the Oxford House First Nation met with the Crown attorney to discuss this particular case. They discussed the reasons why a charge of manslaughter was appropriate; they discussed the reasons in respect of the range of sentencing. The Crown attorney said the court was entitled to know the feelings of the victim's family in this particular case, and the Crown attorney spent an hour and a half explaining to the court--through sentences from the victims--as to why the court should consider the victims' feelings in this matter, and the court, I assume, took that into consideration in entering into its sentence. The Okimows have indicated to the police that they are satisfied with the process, that they were consulted appropriately and I stand by those comments.

Mr. Eric Robinson (Rupertsland): While Chief James Mason, who is the leader of this community and also represents the interests of the Okimow family, is in the gallery today, will the minister agree to meet with Chief Mason of Oxford House and listen to the concerns that he has over this matter?

Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Thank you very much for the opportunity to discuss. As the member for Rupertsland--

An Honourable Member: It was to answer. Answer.

Mr. Toews: To answer this then, to be more specific--from the member for Wolseley (Ms. Friesen). To answer.

As the member for Rupertsland knows, it would be inappropriate for me to meet on a specific prosecution of a particular case, but I will in fact--[interjection]

Madam Speaker: Order, please.

The honourable Minister of Justice, to complete his response.

Mr. Toews: Thank you. I will make senior officials in my department available for the chief to discuss this very important issue.

Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): To the Minister of Justice. It was one year ago this week that the Honourable Ted Hughes reported that responsibility for the Headingley riot rested squarely with this government. Is the minister aware of safety concerns at Headingley today? Eighteen months after the riot, recommendation after recommendation from the Hughes report is ignored; the Scurfield committee which was to resolve matters has broken down; unilateral staff cuts and maximum security inmates under minimum security are endangering safety; that it is worse now under this minister?

Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): The member for St. Johns is not accurate in respect of that, those allegations. There are a number of projects that have been completed, and many of them are well underway and they are all on schedule.

I want to specifically thank Mr. Scurfield who has played a very important role in bringing the union and management together to ensure that the concerns that had been raised by Justice Hughes are in fact addressed. I met as early as this morning with representatives of--senior officials of my department to ensure that the upgrading of the Headingley Correctional Institution is on course and indeed, Madam Speaker, it is.

Mr. Mackintosh: Is the minister now saying to this House and to Manitobans that he is unaware of the issues that I just raised? Is he ignoring them, just like his predecessor, particularly when Mr. Scurfield writes in October, and I quote: I am deeply concerned about the ability of the Headingley Correctional institute to function in a safe and healthy manner.

He is concerned about staff problems. Is this minister closing his ears, closing his eyes just like the one before him?

Mr. Toews: Madam Speaker, of course I am concerned about safety at Headingley jail. I am concerned about staffing levels, and I am concerned, as Mr. Justice Hughes indicated, that we turn the page and move to better relations between the union and management in that particular facility, and part of that involves a government commitment to upgrade the facilities and improve relations.

Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): Will the minister, who should know that the Scurfield committee has not even met for four months, tell Manitobans that aside from the loss of reputation of the justice system from the riot, what is now the cost to Manitoba taxpayers of the riot, including not just repairs but workers comp, medical costs, justice system costs, including a wrongly released inmate and murderer Donald Rouire, the loss of Mr. Futch? Is not the department's $4-million figure just part of the price of this government's lax attitude to public safety?

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Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, I can emphatically say that no, there is not a lax attitude towards public safety. We are deeply concerned about public safety. This government continues to be deeply concerned about public safety. If there are specific concerns that the member has that the committee should address, I know that my very capable assistant deputy minister, Mr. Greg Graceffo, is more than willing to meet with the member and indeed refer any of those concerns to the Scurfield committee.

Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, this being likely the last day of the sitting for this year and the story of the year being the flood of the century here in Manitoba, approximately 28,000-plus Manitobans were displaced out of their homes as a result of the flood, and I am wondering if the minister responsible for EMO can give us an idea as to how many of those individuals would still be displaced today out of their principal residence.

Hon. Frank Pitura (Minister of Government Services): Responding to the question, at the beginning of this month we have just under 200 families that are in a temporary accommodation. We expect that number to drop by some 67 or 68 by the end of December. Should weather conditions continue to co-operate, we can in fact see a decline in those numbers, perhaps even in January and February, providing the weather is with us. But we are committed, Madam Speaker, to anybody that does need temporary accommodation, and we have had assurances from Emergency Preparedness Canada that they will continue to cost-share those costs with us right through until the spring of 1998, at which time any individuals requiring temporary accommodation after that, we will revisit the program and make a decision at that time.

Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, is the government looking at any sort of additional compensation for those individuals that have in fact still no place to call their home, to get them over with respect to the holiday season?

Mr. Pitura: Madam Speaker, with regard to the temporary accommodation--and I might share this with the honourable member--this government is making an allowance of $800 per month to those people who are in a house or an apartment. For those people who are in mobile homes, $1,800 a month is allowed plus the extra allowances in terms of hooking up the services. For anybody that has been in a recreational trailer--and I think that there might be a small number that are still there owing to the fact that they hope to be back into their homes this month--there is an allowance of up to $2,000 a month for those units plus all the allowances, and that would include the hookup and disconnect of utilities.

Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, I had an individual that had indicated to me that during the flood crisis the City of Winnipeg had offered some 35,000-plus sandbags, but the Department of Government Services had declined their use--

Madam Speaker: Order, please. Does the honourable member for Inkster have a question?

Mr. Lamoureux: Yes, Madam Speaker. The question is: can the minister in fact confirm that that offer was there, and the department did turn it down?

Hon. Frank Pitura (Minister of Government Services): Madam Speaker, I am not sure if the member is referring to postflood or preflood offering of the sandbags, but my understanding is that, as far as the Emergency Management Organization is concerned, when offers were made of a supply of sand and sandbags, those offers were in turn related and forwarded to the various emergency management organizations throughout the valley in local municipalities, and it was their decision as to whether they wanted those materials or not. If they took them, we would have ensured that they had them in place.

Mr. Eric Robinson (Rupertsland): Madam Speaker, my questions are for the Minister of Highways and Transportation. Residents of Little Grand Rapids, of course, and the staff of the airport there, the nursing staff included, and especially the leaders of the community, including Councillors Enil Keeper and Councillor Nelson Keeper, did a fine job and also the local RCMP all deserve praise for their heroic efforts in the rescue of the victims of the air crash.

I would like to ask the minister this afternoon if he has had an opportunity to review the decisions of the search and rescue of the armed forces not to contract local helicopters when the Griffon helicopters were stuck overnight at Saskatoon.

Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Highways and Transportation): Madam Speaker, I would also like to add my words of thanks to the people in the community for their immediate response, the efforts of the RCMP, emergency preparedness people of Transport Canada, and also extend sympathies and our thoughts with the people who were on the plane and their families who were affected.

It was certainly a serious, serious accident which will be investigated by the Transportation Board of Canada as to what were the events that led up to it. There has been a lot of comment in the papers, a lot of observations, and the transport board will sort those out.

With regard to the specifics that the member mentioned about response, who responded and whether they responded fast enough will also be part of the review that will be done, and we will await that independent review before anything else is said.

Mr. Eric Robinson (Rupertsland): Madam Speaker, I understand that a couple of weeks ago, the band officials from Little Grand Rapids discussed the problems that they were having at that current airstrip with the department.

I would like to ask the minister whether he is prepared now to make such negotiations a priority, not only for Little Grand Rapids but indeed other northern Manitoba communities--Gods River, Poplar River, Berens River and, of course, the new airstrip that is being proposed at Wasagomach. Again, Madam Speaker, if you would allow me, also a timetable in putting a GPS or other landing equipment at these smaller airports in this province.

Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Highways and Transportation): Madam Speaker, I am sure the member is aware, we have 22 airports in northern Manitoba which carry a tremendous amount of traffic. Little Grand Rapids itself has 4,400 air movements per year. That is the landings and takeoffs of airplanes. That works out to 12 a day. The airports are very busy. We certainly are in negotiation with individuals interested in the different airports across that part of Manitoba.

The member mentioned Wasagomach, which we currently have a cost-shared agreement with the federal government for an airport involvement there of up to $16 million, and there have been negotiations with Little Grand Rapids to look at different alternatives. I believe there were four alternatives on the table for discussion, and they will continue to be analyzed in consultation with the different interested parties.

Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): Madam Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism.

I have obtained a copy of some recent official documentation indicating that CFB Shilo has been placed on the so-called initial list with six other bases for the first phase of the alternative service delivery process which will determine whether support services will be privatized in order to save money. As such, 260 regular and 100 casual jobs may be at risk since it is not clear whether the existing employees can bid for the contracts or whether they will be given jobs by private employers.

So I would ask the minister, Madam Speaker, whether he has been informed that Shilo is on this initial list for early review and that well over 300 jobs could be at risk.

Hon. James Downey (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Madam Speaker, I thank the member for that question. I personally have not been informed. I am not sure whether the department is aware of this or not, but I will be checking with them.

Mr. Leonard Evans: I thank the minister for the answer, Madam Speaker, and I ask him: would the minister undertake to monitor the situation closely and do everything possible to ensure that CFB Shilo is treated fairly in this process, and that every effort be made to minimize potential layoffs at the base, given the negative economic impact it would have in the Westman area and indeed the whole province of Manitoba?

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Mr. Downey: Madam Speaker, the short answer would be yes. The longer answer is that I think it was demonstrated a few years ago, when there was some concern about Shilo, as to the leadership shown by my colleague from Brandon West, the opposition member from Brandon East and the surrounding elected officials, of how deeply we as a government and the region feels in relationship to the maintenance and maximization of Shilo. The government, through the Department of Natural Resources, continued to long-term lease the facilities for the German training people to come, which is a tremendous economic activity. So the answer, as I said, is yes, and there has been in the past considerable amount of work done on a co-operative basis.

Of course, being the Christmas season, Madam Speaker, I would like to wish all members a merry Christmas and the best in the new year.

Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): Madam Speaker, my question is to the Deputy Premier.

I would like to ask the Deputy Premier about his $200,000 grant to TeleSend Gateway Inc., but first I would like to table some documents showing John Ishmael's involvement in TeleSend Gateway Inc. and documents which raised questions as to whether the money was misdirected and was used for improper purposes.

I would like the minister to clarify government policy. This government appears to have a policy of handing out money under the Canada-Manitoba Communications Agreement without doing proper credit checks, without checking the track record and business experience of the applicants, without proper accounting of whether the money gets misdirected to other companies owned by the principals or used as a personal slush fund. In fact, some of the grants appear to be used as slush funds for politically connected people.

Can the minister tell this House: what are the criteria for obtaining grants under this program?

Hon. James Downey (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): First of all, Madam Speaker, I do not accept any of the preamble from the member, which is totally inaccurate, which it has been all the way through the piece.

On this particular program, TeleSend, there was a business plan prepared by Deloitte and Touche prior to the advancement or getting involved in this program, and Mr. Ishmael was not a part of it. In fact, it was backed and proposed by a company known as AT&T, which were proponents of it, which were fully supportive.

As far as the bills that he is referring to that may have come from Mr. Ishmael--were not paid for by the department.

Mr. Maloway: Madam Speaker, my supplementary question to the same minister is this: can the minister confirm that Mr. Jim Mickelson and Gary Albo of his department were advised of TeleSend Gateway Inc.'s problems on February 20, 1995, and that the minister released the final $90,000 grant money during the 1995 provincial election because of concerns that exposure of this boondoggle during the election could hurt the government's chances of re-election? Can he confirm this information?

Mr. Downey: No, Madam Speaker, I cannot confirm and will not confirm that the money had anything to do with the election. The only basis for which the money was released was after a review, an accurate review of the expenditures incurred by the agreement which were within the agreement, after they were vetted through appropriate people and paid bills of small companies that if they had not received that money would have been in extreme difficulties. The monies that were paid were within the agreement and appropriately monitored by the department and by the legal system within our government.

Mr. Maloway: Madam Speaker, my final supplementary to the same minister is this. The minister had time to peruse the supplementary TeleSend Gateway Inc. credit card applications for John Ishmael and the numerous personal charges of each of the three Ishmael family members--

Madam Speaker: Order, please. Does the honourable member have a question?

Mr. Maloway: I do, Madam Speaker. I would like to ask the minister: will he now admit that the grant program was totally out of control because of misappropriation of monies?

Mr. Downey: No, I will not, Madam Speaker.

Ms. Diane McGifford (Osborne): Madam Speaker, I suppose it is jet-setting and living the life of the rich and famous which kept government members from meeting with flood victims in southern Manitoba but not apparently from attending the Royal Winnipeg Ballet in London, England.

I would like to ask the Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship to tell the House exactly how many and which ministers, government caucus members and senior staff members travelled to London and attended the ballet at taxpayers' expense.

Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship): Madam Speaker, I am very pleased that our Royal Winnipeg Ballet was able to have an extensive tour throughout not only London and Scotland but also many other parts of Europe, and they were, in fact, very, very well received. Their tour was quite extensive, and so I am sorry I am unable to tell the member exactly who attended and on what time. I will, however, say that I will--

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship, to complete her response.

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Mrs. Vodrey: I am pleased to tell the member that, while I was away on government business, business involving immigration matters, on behalf of encouraging immigrants to Manitoba, business relating to culture and heritage, I also was able to attend the ballet. However, I am also very pleased, of interest to members since the trip to Europe was arranged to--the member for Point Douglas might be very interested--some of the work on immigration did, in fact, receive front-page coverage on a Canada News. I am very pleased to table it, Madam Speaker and members opposite. In tabling it, it says, "Immigrants urged to consider Manitoba now."

Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): On a point of order, Beauchesne 417 is very clear, and I will read it again: "Answers to questions should be as brief as possible, deal with the matter raised and should not provoke debate." The question was asked: how many Tory MLAs attended the ballet in London? The minister said she was there. I would appreciate if she would answer the rest of the question, indicate how many Tory MLAs were at the ballet in London, a very straightforward question.

Hon. James McCrae (Government House Leader): On the same point of order, because of the good work of the honourable member for Thompson, myself and others, we do not have Friday mornings anymore, and so it seems that some of us feel that we need to celebrate Friday mornings on Thursday afternoons. However, the honourable member for Thompson is right when he points out Citation 417 of Beauchesne which says you are not supposed to provoke debate, but there are other sections in there that refer to the fact that a member asking a question has no right under parliamentary custom, tradition or anything else to insist on the nature, quality, length, and all the rest of it, of a minister's answer. I know that it is upsetting for opposition members, asking a question with the intent of embarrassing the government, to get an answer back that simply informs the House and the public of some of the very fine results which flow from the good work of members on this side of the House. That is frustrating; I admit that, but it is certainly not the subject of a point of order.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. On the point of order raised by the honourable member for Thompson, I would remind all ministers, however, that the Beauchesne citation is very specific, and they should respond to the question asked.

Ms. Diane McGifford (Osborne): Madam Speaker, I was going to ask the minister about the costs. I suppose she will not know the answer about that or about government policy. I would like to ask the minister--

Madam Speaker: Order, please. I believe the honourable member has asked her question. Would the honourable member please repose her question now.

Ms. McGifford: Thank you, Madam Speaker, I did use the conditional.

I would like to ask the minister if she could tell me how many passionate-for-dance Tories attend the ballet in Winnipeg.

Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship): Madam Speaker, I do not think anyone on this side of the House would, in any way, not want to say that they went to the ballet. There are many members who have indicated--and in fact we are very proud of our Royal Winnipeg Ballet. As usual, we hear from the other side of the House something negative towards one of the most important ambassadors for Manitoba, actually in the world; they have travelled extensively. In Manitoba, we are very proud of them.

Madam Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired.