Mr. Chairperson (Gerry McAlpine): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This section of the Committee of Supply will be considering the Estimates of the Civil Service Commission. The honourable minister responsible for the Civil Service Commission, do you have an opening statement?
Hon. Harold Gilleshammer (Minister charged with the administration of The Civil Service Act ): I do, thank you. Mr. Chairman, in introducing the budget Estimates for the Civil Service Commission for 1998-99, I would draw attention to the Supplementary Estimates Information which has been provided and contains a good deal of organizational program and financial information to assist the members with the Estimates review now before us.
The budget Estimates for the Civil Service Commission for 1998-99 show an increase of approximately $107,000, from $4,087,000 to $4,258,000. This increase can be largely attributed to two factors. The first results from additional operating costs associated with the implementation of the government-wide desktop management initiative involving the installation and upgrading of computer work stations and related software. The second involves salary increases related to the three-year collective agreement, which has been applied equally to staff excluded from the bargaining unit, which would include staff of the Civil Service Commission.
The staff year complement for the Civil Service Commission also shows an increase of six staff from 81 to 87. These additional staff years will accommodate the third intake for the Management Internship Program for a total of 18 staff years associated with that program. During 1998-99, it is expected that the original six interns will graduate from the program and be placed in career positions throughout government.
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Mr. Chairman, in my opening remarks in May of last year, I made reference to the fact that collective bargaining would be a major priority within the Civil Service Commission during 1997, and I was hopeful a satisfactory settlement would be achieved consistent with the government's bargaining framework. As the members opposite will know, last fall the government was successful in achieving a three-year collective agreement with the Manitoba Government Employees' Union covering the period of March 29, 1997, through to March 24, the year 2000.
The achievement of a longer-term settlement has provided a period of labour relations stability in which the focus of the Civil Service Commission can now turn toward some of the longer-term corporate human resource management issues facing government. As an example, the Civil Service Commission currently has several staff seconded to and participating in the Better Methods project, which involves a complete updating and redevelopment of the government's corporate financial and human resource management information systems. These systems will have a significant impact on the way the Civil Service Commission manages information and conducts its business in the future.
In addition, the conversion of the new software applications contained within the Better Methods project holds a solution for the Civil Service Commission with respect to the year 2000 issue. The current and outdated management and employee information system is not year 2000 compliant, so it is important that commission resources be directed towards resolving this issue.
The Civil Service Commission continues to explore and expand the use of technology to improve access to services. Two years ago, government employment information was made available on-line through the ACCESS 1-2-3 employment information service. This year, a completely revised and updated personnel policy manual will be made available through the government-wide Internet providing human resource professionals, managers and employees on-line access to the personnel policies and practices which affect them. In addition, the course calendar for organization and staff development will be on-line with a future intent to develop and include information on employee benefits and the Employee Assistance Program. These developments are all consistent with the broader principles of accessibility and transparency in the distribution of information to employees across government.
As referenced earlier, workforce renewal initiatives, such as the Management Internship Program, will be entering its third year with the expectation that the original six interns will be placed in positions throughout 1998-99, allowing room for an additional six interns to be hired the following year. Six new interns are currently in the process of being recruited for 1998-99, with the expectation that the new interns will be appointed sometime in May of 1998.
In addition, the Aboriginal Management Development Project directed at the development of existing aboriginal employees is entering its second year, and the Civil Service Commission will be providing support to a new aboriginal public administration program. This new program is designed to recruit and introduce external aboriginal candidates, with a priority on youth, to the systems and processes of government over a two-year internship that would prepare the interns for employment in government.
These initiatives are all designed in recognition of the aging demographics within the Manitoba public service and the need to prepare the service for the transition and renewal that will be required over the coming years.
With those, brief opening remarks, Mr. Chairperson, I would now welcome any questions.
Mr. Chairperson: We thank the honourable minister for those comments. Does the critic for the official opposition have an opening statement?
Ms. Becky Barrett (Wellington): No, I would prefer to just go right into questions, if possible.
Mr. Chairperson: We thank the critic for the official opposition for those remarks. We invite the minister's staff to join us at the table, and we would ask the minister to introduce his staff when they are present.
Mr. Gilleshammer: Joining me at the table is Paul Hart, the Civil Service commissioner. On his left, Gerry Irving, assistant deputy minister, Labour Relations; and Mr. Bob Pollock, director, Human Resources Programs Branch.
Mr. Chairperson: We thank the minister. We will now proceed to line 17.1. Civil Service Commission (a) Executive Office (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits on page 22 of the main Estimate book. Shall the item pass?
Ms. Barrett: Before we get to subappropriation 17.1.(a), I would like to ask the minister a question about chart 4 on page 15 of the Estimates book, well, actually charts 3 and 4 in combination which is distribution of salaries and distribution of staff positions. As I look at this, actually I was struck by the fact that three of the four pieces of the pie have a higher percentage of salaries than their percentage of staff positions. The fourth piece, which is the largest piece in both categories, oh, second largest piece in the salaries and by far the first largest piece in the number of staff positions. The Human Resource Management Services has over 20 percent less of the pie when it comes to staff salaries as it does when it comes to the number of people.
What I am trying to say is 55 percent of the positions in the Civil Service Commission are in the Human Resource Management Services, but only 35 percent of the money goes in that category. When I read through the Estimates, it is clear to me, at least I think it is, that that is, if I could use the word, the guts of the Civil Service Commission. It is where the vast majority of the activities of the commission take place, or certainly it is the area where there is most direct connection with the members of the civil service.
I just have one question. I am wondering if the minister can tell us in the Human Resource Management Services category what the ratio is of men to women.?
Mr. Gilleshammer: I am informed by a rough calculation to give the member an answer that probably three-quarters of the staff in that area would be women and the other quarter would be men.
Ms. Barrett: Yes, and I wonder, as a follow-up question, if the minister could give me the same rough calculations for the other three categories: Executive Office, Admin Services and Labour Relation Services.
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Mr. Gilleshammer: In what is called the Executive Office, 50 percent of the staff there are male and 50 percent are female. In the Admin Services, I will just give you the numbers and you can figure out the percentages. Out of 14 staff, one of them is male and 13 are female. In the Labour Relations, about two-thirds of them are women and one-third men.
Ms. Barrett: I appreciate the minister's information on that. I would like to go--we are at subappropriation 17.1.(a), are we not? [interjection] Thank you. I am also looking now not only at the Estimates book but at the annual report for '96-97. I will be through the Estimates process sort of going back and forth, because sometimes there is more information in the annual report than there is in the Estimates book in other things.
Under the Expected Results in the Estimates, it says "ongoing review and revision to the business plan, role and mission for the Civil Service Commission," and in the annual report it states that the mission is "to contribute cost effective and client focused strategies, policies, and services that meet the needs of executive government and departmental management." I am wondering if the minister can identify who the client is in this mission statement.
Mr. Gilleshammer: The clients that are served by the Civil Service Commission are departments of government and government employees, as well as, the general public.
Ms. Barrett: The second mission statement in the annual report says "to anticipate the human resource implications of a constantly changing environment and prepare options for management to address those implications." I would like to ask the minister if he could anticipate some of the elements in that constantly changing environment to look a little in advance and see what kinds of things are being looked at.
Mr. Gilleshammer: To serve the clients that we referenced, the departments and the employees and the general public, there are a number of challenges that face the Civil Service Commission. Probably the one that comes to mind first is the technological change that we are faced within the workforce. I referenced others in my opening comments. We have an aging workforce. We have changing demographics. I referenced the internship program, and we also referenced an aboriginal internship program. We have two different programs there. So these are, I guess, items in society that the staff at the Civil Service Commission must take into consideration as they not only plan the programs but also try and determine the nature of the workforce that is going to be required in coming months and coming years.
Certainly, we are also concerned with the fact that there appears to be shortages of skilled people in some areas and also the competition we face from private sector, particularly for individuals that have technological skills that are in high demand across North America and across the world. So staff, I believe, do their best to anticipate some of the changes that we are going to face as we move into the next few years and into the next century.
Ms. Barrett: The minister spoke about shortages of skilled people in some areas and in technological areas. Are the shortages largely in the technological areas, or what areas are there shortages of skilled people in the civil service today?
Mr. Gilleshammer: That would be the best example and the primary area of concern at the moment.
Ms. Barrett: What kind of technological skills are we talking about here? A little more specific.
Mr. Gilleshammer: Some areas of concern are in the area of information technology, systems management staff, project management staff, and database administrators.
Ms. Barrett: Mr. Chair, I understand all those individual words, but I do not know exactly what they all mean in this context. So, what is a systems management person?
Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes, we have a special operating agency within the Civil Service Commission called Organization and Staff Development. They are responsible for putting forth many of the programs that staff require to stay current as far as technology goes and to update on their skills. I know even from within a small complement within the civil service in my own office, from time to time they are accessing programs like that. Perhaps we could arrange to have an overview by individuals in that particular SOA to inform the member of some of the courses and some of the curriculum that is being used.
Ms. Barrett: I appreciate that. Would that help me understand more of what the areas that the minister said in his earlier answer were shortages? Would discussion with the SOA give me some of that information? What exactly do these categories of individuals do?
Mr. Jack Penner, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair
Mr. Gilleshammer: I am sure it would be helpful to have that overview. Probably the best person to get into more detail on that is the chief information officer who has just come into the system, Mr. Kal Ruberg, who has been with us just a matter of weeks. But what I am finding, and I think seeing, is that there are highly technical systems that are being used.
Changes are going on so rapidly that this is an area where both government and the private sector are expending many hundreds of thousands and millions of dollars to put systems in place that are going to provide the information and the communications abilities between departments. Mr. Ruberg, as I have indicated, just started a few weeks ago, but through his office, if the member is looking for a global snapshot of what government is doing to provide training and skills and in-servicing for members of the civil service, that may be a good area to start.
Ms. Barrett: I will call Mr. Ruberg, and I thank the minister for giving me that information.
The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Penner): Item 17.1. Civil Service Commission (a) Executive Office (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $170,200--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $61,600--pass.
17.1.(b) Administrative Services (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $535,800. Shall the item pass?
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Ms. Barrett: No, no. Thank you, Mr. Chair, so I had my hand raised.
The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Penner): You are welcome. I did not see your hand.
Ms. Barrett: I know you did not.
The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Penner): I was reading.
Ms. Barrett: This is where we would discuss Systemhouse? Is this the appropriate place to discuss Systemhouse?
Mr. Gilleshammer: Probably the best place to discuss it would be in the Estimates for the Department of Government Services, but the part of that initiative that affects the Civil Service Commission would be lodged in this particular line.
Ms. Barrett: How many pieces of equipment? I do not know if you could call them terminals, what the technical term is--I am a Luddite of the first order--but how many terminals will there be in the Civil Service Commission upon conclusion of the Systemhouse process?
Mr. Gilleshammer: We have already been transitioned, and the number is 65.
Ms. Barrett: I did not realize "transitioned" was now a verb form. Sixty-five terminals. So what is that in relation to the number of staff? What percentage?
Mr. Gilleshammer: I am told now that the transitioning has been completed, it is about one per staff.
Ms. Barrett: Could the minister explain what was encompassed in the transition process?
Mr. Gilleshammer: The transitioning involved getting rid of the old equipment and bringing in the new equipment, and part of that was also providing two to three days in-service training for the staff.
Ms. Barrett: Two to three days in-service training for the staff. Was that provided onsite or did staff go to Systemhouse? How was the training done?
Mr. Gilleshammer: I am told it was offsite.
Ms. Barrett: Where are the old computers, the ones they got rid of? Where are they now?
Mr. Gilleshammer: I am told they are in storage.
Ms. Barrett: Are they going to remain in storage, or is there some anticipated further use for the no longer required PCs?
Mr. Gilleshammer: That, ultimately, is a central government decision which has not been finalized yet.
Ms. Barrett: Could the minister explain what central government means?
Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, it means that individual departments are not going to find their own solution to that. There will be a government-wide solution, and I know that solution is being worked on.
Ms. Barrett: And who is working on that solution?
Mr. Gilleshammer: Staff within Government Services.
Ms. Barrett: So the staff within Government Services are working, I assume, in consultation with staff of other departments to determine what happens to these outdated pieces of equipment, or will they decide on their own what will happen to them?
Mr. Gilleshammer: They are taking the lead on that and certainly will take advice from other people within government, but Government Services certainly is the department responsible.
Ms. Barrett: Is there anywhere in the Estimates or in any one of the line items--oh, I guess there is. There is the 34.7 item there for Desktop Services on page 33 under 17-1c. Is that the total cost for--oh, no, wait a minute. Okay, I have a problem here.
The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Penner): Are we still dealing with the same line item that we were dealing with before, or have we skipped to different line item? Yes. We were discussing Item 17.1.(b) Administrative Services (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits, and (2) Other Expenditures. Have we moved on?
Ms. Barrett: I am not going by the budget book; I am going by the Estimates book.
The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Penner): Hmm, I need some advice here as to how I maintain a semblance of order in moving along in my book and how we co-ordinate that with your book.
If the committee would consent, I mean, I can move ahead and then move back again; however, I would ask that we might give consideration to Administrative Services, that line, and then move on from there.
Ms. Barrett: I made the mistake.
The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Penner): Okay, let us move back then to (b) Administrative Services.
Ms. Barrett: Please, yes. Thank you. I apologize for this. Okay, under Other Operating, I am having a bit of difficulty figuring out what the two columns mean. I am assuming, because I did not do the math myself, that the 134.4 is a summary of Other Operating, is then itemized by 34.4, 82.8 and 17.2. Is that accurate?
Mr. Gilleshammer: That is correct.
Ms. Barrett: Okay, so the Desktop Services number of 34.4 is the full estimate of this cost of the utilization of the Systemhouse system?
Mr. Gilleshammer: For that branch, that is correct.
Ms. Barrett: For the Administrative Services branch. Okay, can the minister explain the elements that make up that particular item? Is that for training or the purchase or lease of the machines? What elements go into the Desktop Services?
Mr. Gilleshammer: It would be for the hardware, the software, the training. Those would be the most significant components.
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Ms. Barrett: A two-part question. One, is it possible to get, if not right now if you do not have it but later, a breakdown of those three components that make up the 34.4, and, secondly, where in the Estimates is the cost of the contract? I am assuming there is a contract at Systemhouse, an administrative contract or something. Is that the 82.8, or where is that found in the Estimates?
Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes, we are talking about 14 staff, 14 work stations, and that would be the cost of, as I indicated, the hardware, the software, the training, and the ongoing support.
Ms. Barrett: What is the ongoing support?
Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, it is I guess more commonly called the help desk.
Ms. Barrett: It may be more commonly called that by the minister, but I have never heard the phrase, so what does the help desk mean?
Mr. Gilleshammer: If any of these 14 individuals, whilst at work on their equipment, requires help, they can phone the help desk and the problem perhaps could be solved over the phone, as I know it often is, or if it is more complex than that, someone could even visit the site and give them the assistance. So it is estimated that part of the $34,400 for these 14 individuals, which encompasses their hardware, software, training is also apportioned to what is known as the help desk.
Ms. Barrett: Yes, and I can see how you can come up with some pretty concrete figures for the hardware, the software, and the work stations, et cetera, and the training, as you said has already taken place, but how do you apportion the help desk figure? Is there a global figure cost that is charged to the Civil Service Commission and then prorated by the number of work stations?
Mr. Gilleshammer: I am told the organization known as SHL has been in this business for many, many years, and this is part of the estimate that is built into the contract for this kind of assistance.
Ms. Barrett: So the costs for the administrative services for the desktop services, the SHL contract if you will, for the startup year--no, this is the first year. Wait a minute--let me go back. The minister said that the transition had taken place, so the training had already taken place. Is the cost for the training for these 14 people reflected in this figure--it must have been, it would not have been in last year's, or would it?
Mr. Gilleshammer: This is the 1998 expenditure Estimates, so this is the cost that would be in the current year budget for hardware, software, training, and the help desk. Some of the training is ongoing.
Ms. Barrett: But the training started in this fiscal year, so all the training would be reflected in this fiscal year.
Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes, the training is reflected here and this is the training for 1998, and as a result is part of this budget.
Ms. Barrett: Does the minister anticipate that the training element of this item would be lessened year over year because of the fact that the startup training has been done with current staff?
Mr. Gilleshammer: We anticipate that as new software is developed and comes into the system and as there are staff changes, there will have to be a component within this line set aside for training. It is a little premature to get into the 1999 budget, but probably within three or four months that process will start. But we anticipate there will be training needs.
Ms. Barrett: What is meant by machine utilization figure?
Mr. Gilleshammer: This line, I am told, is there because we still operate under a main frame system and, as in coming years, that expenditure will no longer, for the main frame, be required; but there may be expenditures for other equipment.
Ms. Barrett: I have not been attending all of the other Estimates, but it is my understanding that there is in some other departments an estimate of, say, the next five years of the cost of the computers. I believe the Department of Education has made that estimate. Does the minister responsible for the Civil Service Commission have that kind of a long-term cost? You have a contract, do you not, with Systemhouse?
Mr. Gilleshammer: There are some aspects that I think are fixed term cost, but you would have to get that from the Department of Government Services. We do not have projections out into the future that, I think, what the member is looking for.
Ms. Barrett: So the department did not sign a contract with Systemhouse. The government signed a master contract with Systemhouse through the Department of Government Services?
Mr. Gilleshammer: That is correct.
Ms. Barrett: The minister talked about, in an earlier answer, the need for more software to be developed as things change. Who generates the request? I am assuming Systemhouse develops the software or causes to be developed. Who develops the software and as a result of what?
Mr. Gilleshammer: Systemhouse, I am told, will purchase that depending on the needs of government and, in our case, the needs of our department.
Ms. Barrett: So the department makes a request of Systemhouse for software in a particular area, and Systemhouse subcontracts or contracts out to another organization, or however, and then delivers the software to the department? Is that the process?
Mr. Gilleshammer: If we have an opportunity to have some input to let people know what our needs are, their task would be to secure it, and we would purchase it.
Ms. Barrett: So the purchase of software is not covered under the--there is not a sort of an element of the master contract as there is in the help desk about software? Software is an additional charge that would be levied by Systemhouse to the department upon request of the department?
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Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes. There is a standard package. It is called the basic office suite. If we have requirements beyond that, we can attempt to secure it.
Ms. Barrett: Would it be secured through Systemhouse, or could you secure it from another source?
Mr. Gilleshammer: It has to be compatible with the Systemhouse system, but it may be secured from some other source. It has to be installed by them and compatible.
Ms. Barrett: Okay, I think that is all on that at this point.
The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Penner): Item 17.1 (b) Administrative Services (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $535,800--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $290,000--pass. (c) Human Resource Management Services.
Ms. Barrett: I would like to ask some questions about both the Management Internship Program and the Aboriginal Management Development Project. The minister spoke about them in his opening remarks and actually, I would say, highlighted these two programs when he talked about the aging workforce and the demographics of our province that are changing. It sounds to me as though they expect the Aboriginal Management Project and the Management Internship Program to assist government in addressing these issues. I would not disagree with him in any of his comments about the face of Manitoba changing.
So I am looking at the annual report where there is a paragraph on each of them, but it is not very detailed. First, with the Management Internship Program, did it just begin or is it in its first term or when did it begin?
Mr. Gilleshammer: If the member would like, I could put on the record some detail on it. Then, if there is still more information you need, you can ask questions from there. Okay. The Management Internship Program is a new initiative approved in the 1995-96 Estimates. It is co-ordinated by the Civil Service Commission. The objective is to proactively recruit younger, talented employees to assist in meeting future requirements of government consistent with public service renewal and change.
Five or six interns are recruited each year, and this is planned over a period of four or five years. It is centrally managed. There are rotational work assignments. There is the central orientation. There is structured training and mentoring over a two- to three-year period designed to provide accelerated learning and maximum exposure to government operations.
The ultimate goal is placement in a middle management or professional career position within government departments. I know that there were six interns brought on a year ago that I had the opportunity to meet, and we are just in the process of recruiting six more. The six interns recruited in May of 1996 are all moving into the third year of the program and I am told they are all doing extremely well. Five interns recruited in May of 1997 have completed orientation and their first assignments. I am also told that they are doing well.
I have indicated we are recruiting some in May of 1998 and during 1998-99 the original six interns will graduate from the program and be placed in career positions throughout government. Of course, the graduation of the first six interns will allow room for an additional six next year.
I could also provide for my honourable friend the internship short guide and another pamphlet here providing some information on it that I think she would find helpful, so I will table that with the clerk.
Ms. Barrett: I appreciate the minister giving me an overview on that, and I have a few questions which may be covered in the material that he has tabled, but I will ask them anyway.
He says that five to six are recruited each year. What is the recruitment process?
Mr. Gilleshammer: I am told that the recruitment is done by advertising at all of the universities and that the standard process of becoming a member of the civil service is followed.
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Ms. Barrett: The civil service process, that means a written application, an interview or a series of interviews are undertaken by these individuals?
Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes, I am told there is a written application, and then there is a screening process that is used to compare the application to the standard, the criteria that had been set. There is a written test, a personality profile test, and then there is a board consisting of Mr. Pollock and some selected deputy ministers who go through the interview process and make the final decisions.
Ms. Barrett: Are the elements in this process comparable to a normal civil service process or are there additional things added on because this is an internship program?
Mr. Gilleshammer: I am told it is essentially the same, but a little more rigorous in terms of the written test and the personality profile test.
Ms. Barrett: Is there a personality profile test for normal civil service, or is this an additional element to this particular program?
Mr. Gilleshammer: I am told that there is a personality profile test that is sometimes used by departments, if they choose to, but it is used here because this is a training program and it is part of the rigours of getting into the program.
Ms. Barrett: What is the name of the personality test?
Mr. Gilleshammer: I am told it is called preview assessment.
Ms. Barrett: How many applicants in any one year--I know it is a fairly new program, so about how many applicants does the Civil Service Commission get for this program?
Mr. Gilleshammer: I am told they have been attracting around 70 or 80 applicants per year.
Ms. Barrett: What are the scholastic requirements? Do applicants have to be completing their undergraduate program, or is it graduate? What level is it?
Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes, they have to have completed a master's level with a public service focus, and I think that information is contained in the information that I tabled for you.
Ms. Barrett: The minister said that the board was made up of Mr. Pollock and selected deputy ministers. Can the minister give me a sampling or a listing of which deputy ministers are on that board? Do they rotate through, or what are the criteria for selecting the deputy ministers who sit on that board?
Mr. Gilleshammer: I am told that it has been the deputy from Family Services, the deputy from Education, and the associate secretary to Treasury Board.
Ms. Barrett: Can the minister give the explanation for why those three deputies have been selected?
Mr. Gilleshammer: Basically, they have expressed an interest in the program, and I guess they are referred to as sponsors of the program.
Ms. Barrett: Only three departments--well, departments and Treasury Board--have expressed an interest in the Management Internship Program?
Mr. Gilleshammer: The interest is across government. The placements are in all departments; the experiences are in all departments. But I would not sort of read anything special into the fact that those were the three that came forward to participate first.
Ms. Barrett: So we have had now, well, two intake processes. The first group is graduating this year; the second group has gone through its orientation and is going to begin; and the third group is being recruited this spring. Does the Civil Service Commission or whoever--I guess Mr. Pollock would be the person who is the co-ordinator of this. Does the notice go out to all departments saying: Are you interested in serving on the selection board, or is it just reallowing the Family Services and Education and Treasury Board to do it again?
Mr. Gilleshammer: All departments were notified, and these were the three departments that, I guess you could say, came forward first and have been part of the process. It is, in some ways, a pilot project to attract bright young graduates to government, to give them an experience across many departments, and to allow them to commence a career in the public service and fulfill a need that government has.
Ms. Barrett: Who is in charge of the whole program? Who is the co-ordinator?
Mr. Gilleshammer: The Civil Service Commission is in charge of it, and the staff at the table here have certainly taken a strong interest in it. I know that early last year I had the opportunity to meet with these people, and I have since met some of them as they have rotated through various departments, but it is the Civil Service Commission that takes the primary responsibility for it.
Ms. Barrett: The minister stated earlier in discussing this that the interns were rotationally assigned to different departments. Who decides the rotation, and what are the criteria for that rotation? How long are they in each department?
Mr. Gilleshammer: The program is monitored by program staff within the Human Resource Programs Branch of the Civil Service Commission. The approximate time of an assignment is about six months. This is developed and negotiated with various managers in various departments.
Ms. Barrett: So the interns who began, or I guess were recruited in May of 1996, how many assignments would they have had? I assume there was--you said there was an orientation period. How long is the orientation period, and then how many rotations on average would an intern have?
Mr. Gilleshammer: They would have in the area of three or four different experiences and assignments.
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Ms. Barrett: How do the supervisors or the people in the Human Resource Branch determine which departments will get which interns?
Mr. Gilleshammer: I would say there is a certain amount of negotiations involved, depending on the background of the student, the interest of the student. They are rotated into a number of areas such as Executive Council, Finance, Treasury Board, Civil Service Commission, as well as the line departments. I would hope that this is an ongoing process. If someone, after having two experiences, has an interest in another area of government, that can be discussed and arranged so that ultimately we can have a satisfied, well-trained employee and be able to meet the needs of government.
Mr. Chairperson: The hour being 5 p.m. Committee rise.