Mr. Chairperson (Ben Sveinson): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This section of the Committee of Supply will be considering the Estimates of the Department of Environment.
Does the honourable Minister of Environment have an opening statement?
Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Environment): Yes, I do. I am pleased to present the 1998-99 Estimates of the Department of Environment. I trust that honourable members, at least all the ones that are here at this committee this afternoon, have had the opportunity to review the Supplementary Information for Legislative Review prepared for my department.
Before proceeding with an overview of the department's activities for 1998-99, I would like to acknowledge the dedication and effort of all departmental staff in working to fulfill the mandate of the department. A lot of work gets done during the course of a year by, not enough sometimes, very fine and dedicated people who work for Manitoba's Department of Environment.
The vision of the department is to ensure a high level of environmental quality for present and future generations of Manitobans. In pursuit of this vision, the department employs a number of specific strategies. We are implementing the federal-provincial harmonization agreement. We are building partnerships. We are focusing on regional solutions. We are developing practical and innovative enforcement techniques. We are working with partners to prevent pollution before it occurs. We are reducing waste, focusing this year on implementation of the used oil initiative. We are placing greater reliance on targets, objectives and standards rather than prescribing specific technologies or solutions. We are extending the department's resources through involvement of others using delegation and empowerment. We are using financial instruments in licences and orders to ensure clients respect, comply with, and practise environmental stewardship.
We are striving to provide quality service to all departmental clients, and we are ensuring that the expanding livestock industry is sustainable through the implementation of our revised livestock, manure and mortalities management regulation. With respect to our continuous improvement initiative, the department strives to deliver the highest quality of service to achieve the best value for tax dollars. The focus is on satisfying needs as identified by clients and routinely incorporating continuous improvement in all our programs.
Several continuous improvement priorities have been identified for the next three years. Firstly, training. We will continue our strong commitment to training and development in 1998-99 to ensure that all staff are knowledgeable, well trained, and can effectively use current technology to serve our clients. In particular, enforcement and compliance training is a key area. An RCMP enforcement investigators' course, mediation training workshops, the Manitoba Environment Technical Training Seminar, the Canadian Institute of Public Health Inspectors Seminar, the Manitoba Water and Wastewater School and Seminar and various emergency management training sessions will be offered to our staff.
Secondly, the department is developing indicators to evaluate the effectiveness of its programs. These indicators will go beyond the question of, are we doing what we do well, and will help us address the question: Are the things we do now the right things to be doing to protect the environment?
Thirdly, I encourage my staff to be proactive and innovative, to seek out new and better ways to get the job done. Generally, the person doing a particular job is best qualified to figure out how to do it better. We will continue to seek ways to recognize staff who are serving Manitobans well to celebrate their successes. We are doing this, for example, through peer awards and through a Service First fund which will assist in financing new ideas generated by staff that require a little seed money to get started.
My officials, staff of Environment Canada in Winnipeg and staff of the Canadian Council of Ministers of the Environment have now completed the first year of collocation at the VIA Rail Station, 123 Main Street. All three parties are committed to optimize the opportunities provided by colocations.
Specifically, we are exploring a number of program integration and co-ordination opportunities; some have already been implemented. We have a common library service for all three organizations, and we share such services as photocopying, reception and meeting rooms.
Other areas at varying stages of implementation or discussion include administrative and financial services, including human resources and information technology, office recycling activities, dangerous goods and hazardous waste inspection activities, emergency response services, ambient monitoring activities, SOE reporting. In the future, vehicle use, jointly owned and operated field equipment, better integration of inspection and enforcement, improved co-ordination of dangerous goods and hazardous waste inspection activities and emergency response services will also be looked at. When I talk about SOE reporting, I mean, Mr. Chairman, state of the environment reporting.
The department will continue in the 1998-99 year to renew its existing regulations to ensure their conformity with the criteria set out by the regulatory review committee. This follows from the zero-based regulation review that this department and all others carried out in 1995-96. This is an opportunity to ensure that obsolete regulations are updated or discarded and efficiencies made, which are compatible with the department's goal of protecting human health and the environment. Any significant amendments made through this process will continue to involve stakeholder and general public consultation. If we have moved successfully in the last number of years, Mr. Chairman, I suggest it is due to the involvement of stakeholders and the general public in our activities as a department.
In 1998-99, we plan to address certain legislation and regulations, for example, The Contaminated Sites Remediation Act. This act was passed in May of 1997 and I believe it is the best of its kind in Canada. It will be fully implemented in 1998. The act sets out a comprehensive process for dealing with all aspects of contaminated sites, including site investigation, site designation, site remediation or cleanup, and the issuance of certificates of compliance once remediation has been completed.
I believe four features of this act are of particular significance. First, it establishes a fair and equitable process for determining who should be responsible for site remediation. The degree of any cleanup required is based on risk to human health or the environment, and the costs associated with the cleanup are allocated based on the relative degree of responsibility for the contamination.
Second, the registry of contaminated sites for land titles and municipalities ensures that there is adequate information available prior to land transactions. Third, liability for remediation is based on the polluter-pays principle. This is of particular interest to lenders. They will not be held responsible for remediation merely because of their lending activities. This should have a positive effect on lenders' willingness to advance loans in sectors where there has, historically, been some environmental risk. These are the very sectors that need capital to minimize these risks.
Fourth, municipalities will not be responsible for the remediation of a site which they have involuntarily acquired through a tax sale. All of the refinements provided by this act should help us to redevelop contaminated sites in Manitoba, many of which would otherwise remain boarded up or sit undeveloped and unused.
We will be reviewing The Dangerous Goods Handling and Transportation Act. Although The Dangerous Goods Handling and Transportation Act has served us well since it was enacted in 1984, there have been many changes in this field in the past 13 years. We will be reviewing the act starting this year. Some changes will be required simply to keep Manitoba in line with changing federal legislation, as there is a high degree of national co-operation and uniformity particularly in hazardous waste management.
Some of the issues we will be looking at include whether greater emphasis should be placed on pollution prevention, whether more encouragement should be given to on-site disposal and hazardous waste recycling, whether some less hazardous wastes such as used oil, used batteries and used asbestos should be given different treatment under the act, and, if so, what rules should apply.
How do we encourage more recycling of household hazardous waste? How do we address biochemical, biomedical waste? To ensure that this review is thorough, we will be seeking, again, stakeholder input.
With respect to waste disposal ground regulation, the department is reviewing the Waste Disposal Ground Regulation, which was last amended in 1991. The site classification system utilized the various setback distance requirements, the potential development of regional landfills, and the mandatory regular review of the regulation are some of the issues under consideration. A review committee of representatives from the department, the Manitoba Association of Urban Municipalities, and the Union of Manitoba Municipalities is in place. It is anticipated that a final draft of the revised regulation will be completed by the end of 1998.
* (1530)
Just by what I have said so far, you can see that we have been and will be extremely busy, but I am not finished. With respect to the livestock waste regulation, the department has introduced regulatory amendments that set high standards for the management of livestock manure in the province. The name of the regulation has been changed to the Livestock Manure and Mortalities Management Regulation.
With the disappearance of grain transportation subsidies, expansion of the livestock industry was inevitable. We need to ensure that as the industry grows, it is sustainable. This, of course, means being sensitive to the environment, that we are leaving the environment in the same shape, if not better, for our children. I believe our new regulation will help us achieve that goal again. Very, very significant stakeholder input and public input into this regulation. I congratulate everybody involved.
With respect to environment accident reporting, consultations are taking place with regard to the reporting of environmental accidents regulation under The Dangerous Goods Handling and Transportation Act. It needs to be revised to bring it up to date and to improve its enforceability. These revisions are planned for this fiscal year.
We are in the final stages of amending the gasoline handling and storage regulation. The new regulation will adopt the recently developed CCME environmental codes of practice for underground and aboveground petroleum storage tanks. These codes of practice deal with most aspects of the construction, siting, and safe operation of the tanks. The regulation will also require petroleum tank installers to be properly trained and licensed. A significant feature of this regulation will be the ability to require upgrading or removal of unused tanks or tanks that are past a certain age.
Now, with respect to the North American Agreement on Environmental Cooperation, Manitoba formerly signed the North American Agreement of Environmental Cooperation on January 21, 1997, joining Quebec and Alberta as the first three provinces to do so. We will continue to be an active participant in the many important trade and environmental issues to be dealt with by the jurisdictions which are parties to this agreement.
The department is exploring the possibility of implementing a system of Administrative Monetary Penalties. If implemented, it will be available to other regulating departments. AMPs are penalties imposed by the department when an individual fails to comply with legislation. The size of the penalty is up to the discretion of the regulator, within specified limits. We feel that this initiative would be a good alternative to court proceedings for many so-called minor offences. The benefits of an AMP system include: it is cheaper to operate because it reduces costly case preparation and court time, and it is more efficient, so cases can be dealt with quicker. AMP programs have been successfully implemented in several other jurisdictions. AMPs will complement, not replace, the existing ticketing and standard form prosecutions we presently have in Manitoba. The department is undertaking extensive public consultations to explore this concept, and a report and recommendations are expected in the next few months.
My department, together with Rural Development, as a service to the Sustainable Development Committee of Cabinet and the Sustainable Development Co-ordinating Unit is leading an extensive multistakeholder consultation on the integration of the principles and guidelines of sustainable development in environmental land use decision making. This consultation utilizes an 18-person core group of individuals to produce concepts and recommendations for sustainable development decision making and a 50-55 person advisory committee to review and comment on the work of the core group. It is really hard to get through this, Mr. Chairman, when you have to sneeze just about there, but I am working on keeping that under control if possible. This initiative is the first of its kind that we are aware of, and we hope will tell us whether or not our existing processes can achieve sustainable development, and if not, what changes we might have to consider.
Mr. Chairman, Shoal Lake is a high-quality source of drinking water for over 600,000 Manitobans. My department continues to monitor water quality at Shoal Lake and to work with Ontario and the city of Winnipeg to ensure that any proposed developments in the watershed undergo intense scrutiny with the full participation of Manitobans. We will continue to be in close communication with Ontario Environment and actively participate, as appropriate, to ensure the protection of Manitoba's interests.
Manitoba is committed to effective environment management in Canada, including the efficient use of the collective resources of all jurisdictions. We are continuing to take a lead role in negotiations to harmonize environmental management in Canada. An accord and three subagreements related to inspections, standards and environmental assessment were signed in January at the CCME ministers' meeting. Further subagreements related to monitoring, research and development enforcement and environmental accidents will be negotiated in the next 18 months. Specific implementation agreements between Canada and Manitoba will be negotiated to activate the accord.
Consistent with harmonization, we are working with the other provinces and the federal government to ensure there is an effective process in place for the control of toxic substances. We have been taking an active role in national discussions respecting the review and rewrite of the Canadian Environmental Protection Act, and the federal government has tabled for first reading a revised copy of the act. The act now reflects the principles of harmonization and establishes a partnership approach to toxic substances management in Canada.
In 1997, the department received 450 calls through the environmental emergency response system involving some 300 environmental accidents. The department, which has an admirable record of prompt and effective response, will continue to dedicate the required resources to ensure that incidents of environmental concern receive priority attention. The reason I am going through this opening statement, Mr.--[interjection] No, it is just coming up now. [interjection] I think so, spring and everything. Somebody should be looking after--I think it is important to lay the groundwork here. These comments I am making cover virtually all areas of potential interest to honourable members, and I am trying to move through it quickly so that that can be done efficiently. But I believe that this can be helpful in getting us through these Estimates.
My department maintains a strong commitment to making pollution prevention the environmental management strategy of choice in Manitoba. To encourage this shift in thinking, the Pollution Prevention branch carries out a variety of programs intended to promote the application of practices that avoid the creation of waste and pollutants. An evaluation of the efforts that are underway to allow us to reach the goal of 50 percent waste reduction by the year 2000 have indicated significant progress is indeed being made. Overall, Manitoba achieved a 20 percent reduction in waste going to landfill between 1988 and 1994. Further progress is predicted when analysis of waste reduction efforts for 1996 are completed later this year. In addition, national efforts to reducing waste co-ordinated by the Canadian Council of Ministers of Environment has resulted in achievement of a 50 percent reduction in packaging waste as a result of the national packaging protocol.
* (1540)
In 1995, the Tire and Manitoba Product Stewardship programs were initiated to promote even greater waste diversion. All levies collected under these stewardship programs are dedicated to the promotion of waste reduction and prevention and managed by arm's-length-from-government boards. As of 1998, virtually all tires are being processed for recycling or energy recovery, and over 95 percent of all Manitobans now have access to multimaterial recycling services. Over $2 million annually is being spent on the recycling and energy recovery of tires, and $4.25 million in support of payments for municipal recycling programs.
In February 1998, new business plans were prepared and submitted to me by the Manitoba Product Stewardship Corporation and the Tire Stewardship Board. I have approved these plans in principle. Prior to issuing a more comprehensive approval, I have directed my department to prepare regulatory amendments that will be ready for the fall of 1998. I am confident that the renewed plans will lead to further progress.
In February and March of 1998, my department conducted an extensive public consultation process on the effectiveness of the operation of the Manitoba Product Stewardship regulation. Based on this review, I have recommended the regulation be continued. We are also looking at possible amendments to the regulation. The objectives for the new business plan include a broadened funding base for recycling programs as well as expansion in material recovery from the industrial, commercial and institutional sectors. In addition, we will be looking to have even higher rates of participation in material recovery from households.
While building on established stewardship initiatives is the first element of the province's WRAP Strategy, the second component is the development of new initiatives. In 1998, a stewardship program for the management of used oil, filters and containers was launched in Manitoba. The Used Oil, Filters and Containers Stewardship Regulation was adopted in 1997 to require the establishment of industry-managed stewardship programs as a condition for selling these products in Manitoba.
The Manitoba Association for Resource Recovery Corporation or MARRC was formed to meet this obligation, and I approved their five-year business plan earlier this year. Under the MARRC business plan, 15 used oil ecocentres will be established within 12 months. Within three years all Manitobans will have ready access to recycling opportunities. The funding for this program comes directly from the industry-managed stewardship program with no funds being submitted to the government. The industry itself determines the cost of the program and provides the funding.
Other new initiatives that will be receiving particular attention from my department include organic waste and composting, construction and demolition waste, and household hazardous waste. The biggest shift in Manitoba's waste reduction strategy will be to focus on reducing waste at source, the first R of the three-R hierarchy of waste reduction, which is reduce, reuse, recycle. It would also be the hardest to accomplish.
Since 1996, my department has co-operated closely with the Alliance of Manufacturers and Exporters Canada, Manitoba Division, under a memorandum of understanding committed to raising awareness and developing methods to improve environmental performance and competitiveness of the alliance's member firms. Information materials, success stories, and procedures for conducting pollution prevention audits have been prepared, and a progress report on this project has just been completed. Plans are now underway for broader use of these tools.
I am optimistic that the encouragement of voluntary initiatives to prevent pollution will be an effective complement to my department's existing compliance and enforcement programs.
I am pleased to confirm that the Environmental Youth Corps program will operate again in 1998-99. The program offers Manitoba's young people an opportunity to prepare for environmental challenges of tomorrow by helping them gain valuable education and experience today. The Environmental Youth Corps encourages youths to volunteer within their community for projects to improve and protect Manitoba's environment. Youths participating in Environmental Youth Corps projects are provided opportunities for hands-on learning experiences leading to increased knowledge and awareness of environmental matters. The EYC program allows young people the opportunity to be involved in a variety of environmental activities which may otherwise not occur. Environmental projects eligible for funding to a maximum of $5,000 relate to a wide variety of environmental concerns, such as water quality, waste minimization, protection of flora and fauna, rehabilitation of the natural environment and tree planting.
The EYC program focuses on maximizing participation. During the last seven years, $923,000 has been provided to 364 community projects involving over 39,000 young people. During the 1997-98 fiscal year, a total of 48 projects received EYC grants totalling $120,260 with some 5,000 participants. The program is administered by Manitoba Environment, with support from Manitoba Education and Training and the Sustainable Development Co-ordination Unit. This partnership provides for efficient and effective program delivery through the use of existing infrastructure and resources.
Manitoba Environment is continuing to undertake studies to gain a better understanding of impacts caused to water quality from the expanding and diversifying agricultural sector. The goal is to work closely with the agricultural sector to identify potential impacts and to co-operatively seek early solutions to avoid costly problems. My department will continue its focus of working with many volunteer stewardship groups throughout the province. Working closely with these groups increases their level of environmental awareness and allows them to work co-operatively with the local community to protect existing good water quality and to take steps to improve degraded water quality. This grassroots involvement has produced many success stories over the years.
Manitoba Environment will continue its monitoring of many streams, rivers and lakes in Manitoba to track water quality changes and to implement early corrective measures when needed. My department will strive to maintain and to increase its technical and scientific skills to ensure that we are well positioned to respond to water quality issues both at the present time and in the future.
Manitoba Environment will continue to maintain strong links with local laboratories to ensure that we have the technical support to deliver sound programs in both water quality and in other environmental sectors. Because of the geographic location of Manitoba, we receive most of our water from our upstream neighbours in Saskatchewan, Ontario, North Dakota and Minnesota. We will continue to work co-operatively with our neighbours to ensure that water, as it crosses our borders, is of the highest quality possible required to meet our needs. We work closely with the federal departments of Foreign Affairs and International Trade and Environment on potential water developments in the United States that could affect us. Questions were raised in Question Period today on this very topic.
Last fall I signed an environmental co-operation agreement between Manitoba and Saskatchewan that I believe gives us more influence and input to upstream environmental decisions in Saskatchewan. Last spring my department released Manitoba's fourth State of the Environment Report. The 1997 report was intended to be a transitional report toward full sustainability reporting, which is required under the new Sustainable Development Act. Under that act, the province is required to establish a set of draft sustainability indicators within three years of proclamation. The first provincial sustainability indicators are required in 2004.
To address the gap between the 1997 report and the first full sustainability report in 2004, an interim report will be prepared for the year 2000. This report will present recommendations on sustainability indicators and will focus on the issue of urban sustainability. During this fiscal year my department will be working closely with the Sustainable Development Co-ordination Unit to prepare a draft set of indicators, consult with the public on the draft set, and begin collecting information for the year 2000 report.
* (1550)
The department is currently responsible for some 1,450 licensed operations in the province. These operations are obligated under the terms of their licences to meet certain environmental and health conditions. We are in the process of strengthening the compliance program in the livestock area in keeping with the new Livestock Manure and Mortalities Management Regulation, increasing environmental act licence enforcement respecting forest management activities in support of the sustainability of this industry, including audit of the Louisiana-Pacific air monitoring program, continuing to address contaminated sites and hazardous waste regulations as a priority area, continuing to give priority attention to addressing Flin Flon air quality concerns as well as water management issues in the area, placing increased emphasis on ambient water quality monitoring to ensure this critical resource is protected, regularly inspecting all licensed sewage treatment plants to ensure compliance, implementing a risk-management approach to environment act licensed enforcement to ensure that departmental resources are targeted at those operations posing the greatest risk or concern, and, reviewing all components of the food inspection program to develop a clear risk-management policy and protocol for inspections and compliance.
The department, in conjunction with our partners--Manitoba Health, local governments, water plant operators, and the Manitoba and Canadian water and wastewater associations will take all measures necessary to protect and ensure the quality of all Manitoba drinking water sources. A number of initiatives are underway. A risk assessment protocol will be implemented to determine the need for and frequency of inspections and sampling of water supply sources.
We are entering into partnerships with the industry to play a more active role in the operation of facilities. Through regulatory review, a number of regulatory processes will be streamlined with more authority being delegated to environment officers and public health inspectors. Improved operator training will be pursued and mandatory training will be considered. Partnership opportunities with the Union of Manitoba Municipalities, Northern Affairs, First Nations organizations, and seasonal operators of the Parks Branch are being explored. We are conducting northern community water and sewage treatment plant operator training sessions in conjunction with Northern Affairs.
Now that concludes my opening remarks with respect to the department's 1998-99 Estimates. I look forward to the detailed review of the Estimates. I appreciate the opportunity to make that opening statement, and I think that if we check over what was said in that opening statement, I think that will be helpful. I thank all honourable members of this committee present this afternoon for their attention to everything I have had to say.
Mr. Chairperson: We thank the Minister of the Environment for those comments, and we ask the official opposition critic, the honourable member for Selkirk, if he has an opening statement.
Mr. Gregory Dewar (Selkirk): Mr. Chairman, we thank the minister for his opening comments. They were very useful. It is always unfortunate that he delivers them now and it is too bad we could not have a copy of that in advance, because there is a number of good points that he raised in there.
Mr. Chairman, we depend on nature. You know nature, of course, provides us with the supply of the basic requirements of life--energy, oil, gas, coal, and so on, and wood for shelter, food and water. The minister touched on some of these issues in his opening comments. In order for us to survive, we must ensure that we use the essential products of nature no quicker than they can be renewed and that we discharge waste no more quickly than they can be absorbed or recycled. I know both of these issues, I think, are very important.
Unfortunately, there have been some disturbing and alarming trends throughout the world, I think, that should cause concerns to all of us who live on this planet and require the ecosystems of this planet to survive. Deforestation and soil erosion; there is fisheries in trouble; there is this water contamination; there is species of both plants and animals that are threatened with extinction and several that are extinct; there has been an increase in greenhouse gases and ozone depletion. Those of us who care about these issues, these very, very important issues, have a very serious and important challenge ahead.
I think and I know the minister would agree that we must leave our natural environment a better place than when we arrived here for our children's sake and our grandchildren's sake. A generation ago, in a story that my mother relates to me, she lived in Selkirk all of her life and 40 or 50 years ago or even 20 years ago residents of that area would and could swim in the Red River before there were any other recreational facilities available in the community. Now there is the potential of putting your health at risk to come in contact with the water.
We here in Manitoba have had a very dramatic impact on our natural environment since European contact, the disappearance of the great buffalo herds and, in fact, I understand at one time grizzly bears were common in this area. Forests were cut down and converted into farmland.
Just another personal story, when my family lived in Selkirk and they moved out just west of Selkirk just after the turn of the century to the area that is commonly known as the Oak Hammock area--we all called it St. Andrews Bog--the first thing that my great-grandfather did was proceed, along with his neighbours, to drain that land. In fact, one of the ditches is called Dewar Ditch, our family's claim to fame in that area. But that is what they did initially. They moved out there and they drained that swampland. What are the remnants of that now, of course, is the Oak Hammock Marsh. I do commend those who have worked to maintain that.
So we have had a significant impact on Manitoba just in the last 100 and 150 years. I think we have to look ahead to the next 100 years and try to lessen the harmful effects that we could have, we may have on our natural world. I think that is a challenge that we have as Manitobans and as legislators and we owe that to our children.
There are a number of issues that I would like to raise over the course of the Estimates of the department, the review of the department. I am interested in the water issues. The minister raised that. I think that is probably one of the more important issues and was again raised in the House today by my leader, the effects of the flood from last year in terms of waste reduction, both recycling and the remediation of waste, household hazardous waste.
The minister mentioned the recycling program that is funded by the levy on containers. He also mentioned that there is a review undertaken. The used oil program, I have got some concerns, some issues regarding that. The expansion, as he states in his opening comments, of hog operations in Manitoba, we know that there are a number of concerns that individuals have regarding that, the potential damage that this industry may have on our environment, in particular ground water quality.
He also raised a number of issues regarding The Contaminated Sites Liability Act, the youth corps, the state of the environment and so on. So there are a number of issues we could raise. I know that some of my colleagues will be coming in at a later date. There is some interest, a particularly strong interest in some of the forest licences that have been approved by the minister. I know that they have some questions regarding those issues.
For now, if I could just begin questioning, I would like to proceed now.
* (1600)
Mr. Chairperson: We thank the official opposition critic for those comments. Under Manitoba practice, debate of the Minister's Salary is traditionally the last item considered for the Estimates of a department. Accordingly, we shall defer consideration of this item and now proceed with consideration of the next line.
Before we do that, we invite the minister's staff to join us at the table, and we invite the minister to introduce his staff present.
Mr. McCrae: Mr. Chairman, in my opening remarks, I made some reference to the people who work in the Department of Environment, and the three with us today are representative of the kind of dedication and commitment that I was talking about; first, Deputy Minister Norm Brandson and Assistant Deputy Minister Dave Wotten and Gerry Glenn who is our director of Administration.
Mr. Chairperson: We thank the minister for that. We now proceed to line 31.1. Administration and Finance (b) Executive Support (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $371,800 on page 50 of the Estimates book. Shall the item pass?
Mr. Dewar: Mr. Chairman, I, too, would like to welcome the minister's staff to the proceedings this afternoon.
What we have done in the past, and it seemed to work quite well, is that we moved quickly into Environmental Management, and under that we just sort of jump around and ask a number of questions, if the minister would agree with that.
Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. Is it agreed that indeed we will have some wide-ranging questions through these Estimates and then you can proceed to pass them after?
Mr. McCrae: In my years in the government, it has been my practice to be flexible and to deal with matters. The only thing I ask is that sometimes we do not have the information immediately, and what I usually do is undertake to provide the information.
Usually, it is available by the next day, and that which is not available the very next day is provided to my honourable colleague within a reasonable time in writing. If that is okay with the honourable member, that is okay with me.
Mr. Chairperson: Okay, it is agreed that there will be wide-ranging questions.
Mr. Dewar: Mr. Chairman, under Financial and Administrative Services, the department administers the many requests made under The Freedom of Information Act. Can the minister give me an idea of some of the requests that have been requested under this act from his department?
Mr. McCrae: I inherited just over a year ago a department that has grown in esteem in the past 10 years, and certainly that is probably because of the open nature of this particular department in its dealings with those with whom we do business. The type of information that is the subject of Freedom of Information requests is technical, usually reports, correspondence related to licensing issues or environmental accidents, that sort of thing. We do not get a lot of Freedom of Information requests, but those ones that we do have, that we know of, we can compile that information, because, as I understand it, it is not going to be voluminous, and make it available to the honourable member.
Mr. Dewar: That is fine. Thank you. I attended, oh, a number of different meetings regarding hog operations over the past weeks prior to the opening of the session, and I was operating under the understanding that the minister would be hiring additional inspectors to deal with the new regulations, the new regulations under the Livestock Manure and Mortalities Management Regulation. Has the minister, have they hired any additional inspectors to help administer, help actually inspect and follow up on the new regulations?
Mr. McCrae: That is an important question because we take our responsibilities respecting the new regulatory framework quite seriously. That is expected of us, not only by ourselves, by the opposition in the House, but by the industry and by the communities in which hog operations have been and will be located. So we expect, initially at least, that we need six people, additional to what we have in place, and we are currently recruiting. We are recruiting an engineer for livestock-waste facilities to be located in Brandon, a hydro geologist in Winnipeg, two new environmental officers for inspection purposes. We think we will need a couple more as well, but at the present time we are recruiting four of the six at the moment.
A lot of the activity that is expected has not taken place yet. In addition, not all of the provisions of the regulation come into effect immediately; but, as they do, we expect to have the human resources available to carry out the best regulatory framework for livestock production anywhere in Canada. We have been working, as other departments have, with positions vacant. So we are able to fill vacant positions for the purpose of the hiring of this new staff that is required.
Mr. Dewar: Where in the Estimates book are those new positions identified?
Mr. Jack Penner, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair
Mr. McCrae: Mr. Chairman, I have indicated they are not new positions. They are new positions in that there is a new function attached to previously existing staff years which have been vacant. This is a bureaucratic way of saying we need new people to fill existing positions that are vacant.
So I am just trying to simplify this. It will not show up in a line somewhere six new positions for this particular regulation. They are in various areas and they are vacant and not being used, so we are going to use them to enforce the regulation.
Mr. Dewar: I will get back to the issue of hogs a little later on, but I want to follow up on some of the issues raised by my Leader with the Premier (Mr. Filmon) once, I guess, on May 6 and of course today in the House regarding the Devils Lake dilemma.
As the minister is aware, this has been an ongoing situation. It involves the federal governments of both Canada and the United States. It is a very serious, serious issue. My understanding of course is that the Devils Lake is expanding and is causing a great deal of problems to area residents. I am just basing this on some of the media reports that have been published in the last number of weeks. I think in questioning today I caught most of it. I have not of course had a chance to review the exact comments made by the Premier until Hansard is available, but he seemed to understate the urgency at this point of this issue. Maybe the minister could just enlighten the committee today regarding the whole issue and his sense of this issue and the urgency of trying to come to a solution to this problem.
* (1610)
Mr. McCrae: Mr. Chairman, I share the concerns raised by the honourable member in his question. They were canvassed by the Leader of the Opposition and by the First Minister today in Question Period. I will be reviewing the words that were spoken. I think the questions and the answers generally set out the situation. I cannot really say more about it than what has been said by those two rather senior members of our Legislature.
I was honoured and pleased to join with the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Cummings) a couple of weeks ago for breakfast with the U.S. Ambassador to Canada to discuss this and other matters but certainly significantly the matter raised by the honourable member. I do not think I can do better than our two leaders did in Question Period today, so I am not going to try.
Mr. Dewar: Well, in your discussions with the ambassador, what exactly did you put forward as Manitoba's position on this potential diversion?
Mr. McCrae: We put forward the position outlined today in Question Period by the First Minister (Mr. Filmon). I am not meaning to be trite or facetious, that is basically exactly what the position of the government is and that is the position we put forward to the ambassador.
Mr. Dewar: Has the minister's department done their own environmental analysis on the water condition in the Devils Lake?
Mr. McCrae: Because this is not our lake, we do not really have access to it for the purposes that are implicit in the honourable member's question. Nonetheless, we have extremely skilled and educated people at our disposal here, and their concerns are reflected in Manitoba's position.
Mr. Dewar: In the media report from the Winnipeg Free Press on Tuesday, September 16, of last year, Todd Sando, he is director of North Dakota's Water Development Division, he was in Grand Forks to talk about, as I say, the two-day symposium at the University of North Dakota, and he said the outlet, referring to this flood control plan of Devils Lake, would operate at 300 cubic feet per second, and it is quoted that he is considering this to be only a trickle. Now, does the minister think that 300 cubic feet per second of water entering the Red River is only a trickle?
I just want to know if he has done any kind of analysis as to what this would mean to our own watershed if Devils Lake--and there are some concerns regarding organisms there and foreign fish species, and so on, that would find its way into our water system, into the Red River and eventually of course into Hudson Bay, and what impacts this would have upon the Red River and Lake Winnipeg? What environmental impacts would water from Devils Lake have on our water system?
Mr. McCrae: Well, Mr. Chairman, the previous answer I gave, I think, really sets it out as best we can at the present time. We have not been able to this point to do the minute detailed scientific research that would allow a complete answer to the honourable member's question. There does exist however, in the minds of learned individuals, enough concern that the position we take is justified.
Mr. Dewar: So the minister is saying he does not have any studies that were conducted from the Garrison Diversion years, which is a 25-year-old scheme? They have nothing that they can tell us that would offer any further light on this issue in terms of direct impacts that this would have upon the watershed here in Manitoba?
Mr. McCrae: As I say, only by comparisons by educated people but not based on the kind of science we would prefer at this particular time, and I remind the honourable member that the Devils Lake sources are not the same as the Garrison sources of water, which are from another basin.
Mr. Dewar: As was raised by my Leader in the House, I think there is a higher sense of urgency of this issue. We know that the U.S. Congress has allocated $5 million, I believe, to the project and that the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, there is a timetable laid out and there are a number of different phases, Phase 1 to Phase 4. Phase 4 is to construct an emergency outlet. The preliminary schedule of the Devils Lake Emergency Outlet has Phase 4, which is the construction of this outlet starting in April of this year. To be concluded, construction would proceed until winter, until the end of November and then start again next year with the final conclusion of the outlet in the fall of 1999. It seems to me that the U.S. government is moving along fairly actively to proceed with this. Is the minister aware of this information? Does it raise concerns with him?
* (1620)
Mr. McCrae: One thing I have learned after 10 years working with the First Minister (Mr. Filmon), it is pretty hard to improve on some of the things that he sets out. For example, earlier on in Question Period, these same questions were asked at that time and canvassed well. The First Minister talked about the various processes that are in place for dealing with matters like this and, while we view this matter extremely seriously, we think that those processes are there for the protection of our environment and we ought to use those processes.
Mr. Chairperson in the Chair
In the meantime, of course we have made our concerns known to the U.S. ambassador to Canada about this matter, and our Premier has not minced any words with respect to his concerns about it. Our Premier is an engineer by profession, and I think if he expresses concern, which he has done, then there is reason to listen to what he has to say, and that is what I did today in Question Period. I simply cannot improve on what he said. He put forward a very logical discussion of the matter the honourable member is discussing with me now and all of the different processes that are in place there. We should use them and we have full intentions of doing so, including keeping the federal government aware and mindful of our concerns, as indeed Congress is voting appropriations for expenditures of money for studies into these sorts of things and talk of construction. Of course these things cause us concern. We know that our Red River can flood and, in any event, whether it is flooding or not flooding, we want to know what is going into our water system here in Manitoba. I do not know that I can add anything usefully to what has been said except to say that we, of course, are vigilant and we do view these matters extremely seriously.
Mr. Dewar: Mr. Chairman, I do support the government's action, and I wish them well. Clearly we think it is in the best interests of all Manitobans that this scheme not go ahead.
The minister did raise the issue of flooding. Last year at this time all of us in Manitoba were dealing with the flood of the century and the impact it had on our lives, but it also had a very significant impact upon the environment, particularly southern Manitoba areas that were inundated with the swollen Red River.
Now a year has gone past, and, notwithstanding some of the emotional scars it has upon individuals, I want to ask a question regarding any long-term environmental effects that this may have had upon the Red River Valley.
Mr. McCrae: Mr. Chairman, just on the last topic, maybe to close it off, because the honourable member has moved on, but it should be pointed out to the honourable member who is concerned about this that there have been three separate delegations to Washington in the past year of senior people from the government of Manitoba to express concerns with senior people in Washington, D.C.
With respect to the flood and whatever residual problems there are, I have to go back a year and say to the honourable member that I turned out somewhat surprised, pleasantly as it turns out, with respect to the environmental depredation that could take place as a result of a flood. The main issue--remember, the honourable member might remember talk of thousands and thousands of carcasses floating down the river. I do not know how many there were, but the problem was not anywhere near what was built up in my own mind as a result of talking to various people, including my daughter, who lives in Grand Forks and studies there, who suffered some pretty serious consequences herself as a student. If that happened to her, I know that people all along the river had a terrible time last year.
In terms of any residual problems, I suspect the major area would be in domestic wells. Most were cleaned up by flushing or chlorination, but there are still a few where there is some residual contamination. I do not have more detail on it, but I can get more detail if the honourable member wants that.
It is expected that those few with residual contamination will in time be cleaned up, but at this point I can only speculate on how many --there are only a few left, I am told.
Mr. Dewar: The Red, of course, when it expanded its banks throughout southern Manitoba, must have flooded lagoons and picked up pesticides, fertilizers, manure, herbicides, and so on. Did that show up at all? Eventually The Red meanders past my community and ends up in Lake Winnipeg. We are once again heading into the summer recreational period and the beautiful beaches in that area are used by thousands of Manitobans and tourists. I know that there was a situation a number of years ago where there were concerns regarding the high fecal coliform count in some of the areas near to the Lake Winnipeg beaches--Grand Beach, Winnipeg Beach and so on. Has the minister picked up any of that now? Is he monitoring that area and those beaches to ensure that swimmers in that area will have a safe season ahead?
Mr. McCrae: As is done each year, recreational waters are certainly monitored carefully and reports made, but with respect to, again, the flood last year, the honourable member's question related to things like lagoons and contamination resulting from flooding in areas that carried contamination into the river.
As a matter of fact, there was a lot of good work done before the flood, thanks to the kind of forecasting that is done in Manitoba. A lot of work was done in anticipation of flood waters, so that a lot of problem contaminants were moved to higher ground or tanks were drained. Those sorts of things were done.
I remember the Miller site was the subject of a front page news story as a matter of fact at the time of the flood. It was the only area in the area that was dry, the Miller hazardous waste site.
So as a matter of fact, one of the things that the flooding did was make communications difficult. The day that the matter was raised, I was not able to confirm or deny stories that there was flooding going on at the Miller site, but there was not. In fact, farmers in the area and others from town wanted to store vehicles and machinery on high ground. That was the place that was chosen for that purpose.
* (1630)
But also the shear volumes of water moving along the system had a surprising effect for me as a neophyte Minister of Environment. One of the things about contaminants is that they simply get diluted by huge amounts of water flowing through a system that usually only accommodates much smaller amounts of water. But there was an emergency program. We monitored flood waters. We cleaned up visible containers of chemicals. We monitored water quality, and with respect to even last summer, there were some beaches that were cause for concern, but I believe that there was still beach activity going on in many places in Manitoba. But beach monitoring continues this year as it has in the past.
Mr. Dewar: In your answer you raised the issue that in fact there were some areas of concern in terms of the beaches. You said you were monitoring that. What were you finding, at what levels, when, and was the public notified regarding these high levels?
Mr. McCrae: It is a difficult question in the sense that contamination of water occurs from so many different sources. Very often they are natural, very often they are not. When we know of some kind of activity that is going on from human beings that has the effect of illegally contaminating, then action is taken on that front. We know that every year, in one place or another, you will find occasional, sometimes isolated, sometimes not, but occasional high coliform counts and not always so simple to trace its origin. That is why when it is found, we do not waste a lot of time trying to figure out how or why, but we do want the public to know when counts are above levels that are considered to be appropriate or safe. So that is why you get public announcements and that sort of thing. I do not think that my department would ever come across a high count which indicates a lack of safety for human beings and does nothing about it. But we know that last year at Delta Beach, there was a case of contamination that was reported on, and I do not know to this day if we got it cleared up or why. Sometimes it has to do with known causes, and sometimes not so known causes, related perhaps to nature itself.
I have a note here. The results of the tests that are done on recreational waters are evaluated in conjunction with the Medical Officer of Health. The Medical Officer of Health makes decisions about whether to post beaches with public notices. Generally, fecal coliform levels are the criteria used for a decision to close or to post a beach, and fecal coliform can be human or it can be animal. As I said last year, flood waters diluted these counts very, very significantly, as you would understand, in many areas. I think that is about as much as I can say about that.
Mr. Dewar: I would like to move on to the Household Hazardous Waste Program. I raised these questions in the House with the minister, and I do not really know if we got an answer.
Mr. McCrae: You did, you did.
Mr. Dewar: Well, he said we did. He did say something in response to what I asked him, but I am not entirely sure if it was exactly what I had asked. I remember the program was on; then it was off, and then it seemed to be back on again. I believe there was some pressure during the Portage by-election--and my colleague for Portage joins us here today--and so it seemed like the program was back on again.
So I just want to ask the minister: what is the status of this very useful program? It collected and took out of the waste stream more than 200,000 kilograms of hazardous waste, household hazardous waste. Like many Manitobans, I find myself doing some spring cleaning, finding old paint cans with some paint in them, oils and so on--of course, I know you are dealing with the oil issue--but solvents and antifreeze and finding it difficult to find a place in order to properly dispose, in some cases, or to treat, to remediate these wastes. Maybe the minister can tell us: is this program on or is this program off for this year?
* (1640)
Mr. McCrae: I cannot help but wonder if the honourable member is not just a little bit cynical about by-elections and things like that. I know that the honourable member and his colleagues might be a little sensitive about where the NDP came on that particular by-election. That aside, Mr. Chairman, of course we set that aside as we discuss the issue of household hazardous waste.
I do not think my answer was all that unclear, but just in case--which is always possible--I will make it clear. We are budgeting this year for an appropriation of $350,000 for Miller Environmental to run a number of household hazardous waste days again in Manitoba. Now the problem--as I tried to point out, but I guess I must have lost the honourable member, and I am sure it is my own fault--but we thought we might be further along with our oil and container and filters program last fall than we were. Simply put, with that in mind, the department felt that bringing the $350,000 appropriation down to $250,000 would nonetheless allow us to collect just as much. As a matter of fact, we collected even more last year with all of the on-again, off-again, the honourable member referred to. We still collected way more anyway.
So this year--I hope this is clear--$350,000 is in the Estimates for this particular purpose. If it turns out to be too much money, then I guess we will have to look at the situation next year. But frankly, the used oil program did not come on quite as quickly as we thought it would and that accounted for the budget amount of $100,000 less. It had nothing to do with a cutback for the pure purpose of cutbacks, because we had this other one going into place that was supposed to pick up the slack. That did not happen. The money was restored last year, and it remains at that level this year. Now I do hope that is clear enough.
Now, when did we make that announcement about that? Was that right in the middle of that by-election? [interjection] My friend and colleague from Portage la Prairie does not think so either, so we will have to check that out.
Mr. Dewar: I am pleased to hear that the program is on again, and that is a good thing. As I said, it has taken a lot of waste out of the landfill sites, and hazardous wastes as well. So how many rural depots do you expect--or how many rural communities do you expect will be signing up this year?
Mr. McCrae: That is something that is negotiated between communities showing an interest in the program, the department and Miller Environmental. I am not able to tell the honourable member how many there will be or where or when at this point because that is something that is being worked out.
Mr. Dewar: Whose job is it then to promote this? I know that, say, in Selkirk, you work with the town. The town offers up a space, and I think you contract, as you say, with Miller. So whose job--because I talked to town officials and they were sort of unclear. I talked with the mayor, and he likes the idea and will be once again pushing for one. In the Selkirk community, he just felt that it was not--though he feels it is a good idea--utilized, I guess, as well as it could be in that community. Maybe it is an issue of promotion. I know that you are promoting the recycling program pretty aggressively throughout the province. Whose responsibility is it to promote this collection?
Mr. McCrae: I do not know--I do not have the numbers for Selkirk in front of me--whether I can agree that there was not a sufficient effort or not. I think that it is the responsibility of the community to promote events like this. Well, I think the local MLA could get involved. I know I am asked to do it in Brandon, and I will do it, and everywhere else--we always do what we are asked as MLAs, I know.
Brandon is pretty aggressive about this type of programming, and I do not know whether the numbers back up what the honourable member is saying about Selkirk, but I will bet you, with the minimum amount of effort on the part of a few people in terms of promotion, you will get lots of basements cleaned up and that out of Selkirk, and that material will find its way to a better place than it was previously.
It is very much a community-driven matter. I just met the other day with a fellow from Brandon who is very interested in improving our performance there on recyclables. He is thinking of some very interesting proposals, involving getting the kids involved. He believes, as I do, that the next generation, and I am not sure which generation the honourable member for Selkirk is. He is probably somewhere in between mine and the next one, as I call them. In any event, this man in Brandon has in mind to involve the children who will be the stewards of the future of our environment in involving them in recycling activities, and I do not know if his proposal will fly or not fly at this point. I commend citizens for that sort of visionary thinking. I invite the honourable member to have a chat with the mayor there and the members of council to sort of charge them up with respect to this type of program. I do not think it takes much doing to get support, I found that, and my predecessor certainly did that. You start moving in the right direction and invite people, and they will join in because it is for the right reasons.
Mr. Dewar: I agree with the minister, and it is certainly something we all have to do. But, in looking at the number of cars, say, Selkirk, we are only 80; in a community the size of Pinawa, 95, for example--these are numbers that you provided--the R.M. of East St. Paul, 200. So it is not based at all upon population in terms of the number of cars that attend and take in their wastes.
I think part of the problem is that because of the uncertainty in terms of whether the program was on or off, I think, led to some confusion in certain areas. I am pleased that the program is on again. In conversation with officials there, they were not sure if it was on or off; but now that it is on, I am sure the community of Selkirk will be as energetic as any to eliminate these wastes from their homes.
Mr. McCrae: In a perverse kind of way here, I will disagree with the honourable member. Perverse, because I acknowledge that there was some uncertainty in some areas. I acknowledge that because that is exactly what happened, and that uncertainty led to town councils all over the place, and R.M. councils, laying down resolutions and sending them in to us, making us aware that those resolutions had to result from some debate locally and awareness. I mean, there were people who did not even know there was a program in the first place. Then they probably said, oh, now they are going to shut down this program; well, I am going to get mad about this. I am going to do something about it. I am going to become more environmentally conscious. I am going to clean up my basement. I am going to present somebody with my hazardous waste, and they better have a program.
In a perverse kind of a way, I disagree with the honourable member because we have generated some interest. Now I am not trying to say that we did that on purpose, but we did generate some interest in the appropriate disposal of household hazardous waste. So all is well that ends well on this one, and it certainly came out in some pretty responsible expressions of support for a good kind of program.
Now we do not want to overfund the program either. Some people might think that is the thing to do, but I do not think overfunding any program is the right thing to do, because there are too many other important programs screaming out for resources. Let us get it right. Let us see the performance of this particular year. I predict it will be pretty high levels again, perhaps partly because of the experience of last year but partly because of the good efforts of people like the honourable member for Selkirk (Mr. Dewar) who is going to get out there, the honourable member for Interlake (Mr. C. Evans), the member for Portage la Prairie (Mr. Faurschou), and all the other members gathered around this table here today, who are going to get out there and urge their communities to get involved in cleaning up all those basements and garages and things like that.
* (1650)
So some clouds have a silver lining and this may be one of those ones because, after all, the oil and filter and containers program will be running for a good part of this year. So we do not know if we are going to be overfunding this program with this $350,000, not necessarily the indications you get from Miller, because obviously they need dollars to run their programming too, but at least for now we know that the funding for this fiscal year is set at $350,000.
Mr. Dewar: Does the minister follow up with Miller as to what exactly they do with all this hazardous waste that they collect from rural and urban Manitoba?
Mr. McCrae: Pursuant to regulation under our Dangerous Goods Transportation and Handling Act, Miller is required to keep records on where all this stuff goes, and that is something that is available to environment officials in Manitoba. I am told that a lot of it goes to whatever purposes are appropriate in places like the U.S.A. and in Ontario for the most part, so that all the items, all the household hazardous waste that is collected under this program is traceable as to where it ultimately ends up.
Mr. Dewar: The minister, in terms--if we can deal with this issue of waste and household hazardous waste--he mentioned of course the used oil program. I do not have all my notes with me. I did not expect to be doing the Estimates today, but I do have some information in Selkirk on this. I know this program came on as of March, I believe, but there were certain garages, operators that were in fact collecting this levy prior to the program coming into place. I know that the individual in Selkirk, I believe he sent some information to the deputy minister on this. What did you do and what can be done to try to clear up some of these problems associated with this, I think, useful program?
Mr. McCrae: I am not sure I understand exactly what the honourable member is asking. With respect to levies imposed for oil, is the honourable member saying that the oil companies themselves were imposing on retailers the responsibility to pay up or that retailers were charging customers ahead of the proclamation date? I just need to get that nailed down.
Mr. Dewar: The latter.
Mr. McCrae: I recall my days. This was before the honourable member came to this place, but I was Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs at one time, and these sorts of matters--if there is some kind of business practice going on that is out of line, there is the Consumers' Bureau, for example, that could be complained to. But in terms of the actual price of a quart of oil, this government I do not think has, nor any other government in Manitoba, ever regulated the price of a quart of oil. In fact we do not today, even with this levy. It is an industry; it is an industry levy that is being imposed. If something was being charged for prior to the date that the MARRC established as the starting date, subject to being informed otherwise by my staff here, I do not know that other than the marketplace taking some control over the situation, unless there is a potential for a complaint to the Consumers' Bureau, I am not sure--if the honourable member has a specific case to bring to my attention, he could do that, and I would make every effort to look into it.
I am sorry for the pause, Mr. Chairman, but the honourable member has indeed raised one issue with us. I am advised that I guess one operator took upon himself allegedly to make some charge of his customers or her customers for the handling of some of these goods. Now, on its face, there is no law that has been broken that we know of; but, if something like this were to become a problem for members of society, then the market has a way of dealing with that. If there is any question of business practices that are inappropriate or even illegal, there are agencies to which people can lodge complaints.
Mr. Dewar: You recommend that I direct my constituent to the Consumers' Bureau and let them deal with this concern. The fact was, and I believe they were faxed to the deputy minister, the invoices of an operation, regrettably an operation in Selkirk that was charging this levy on oil and on oil filters in the fall of 1997. So it was just a concern I wanted to raise with the minister today.
Mr. Chairperson: The honourable minister, with a very short response.
Mr. McCrae: Yes, Mr. Chairman, as I understand--oh, your time is different from mine--as I understand the situation about which the honourable member is talking, we talked with the customer in that case about the matter. In point of fact, that customer has used the powers available, and that is to go to another place to do business. So, as I say, the market has a way of dealing with some of these things too, but the Consumers' Bureau is there, should there be need for complaint.
Mr. Chairperson: The time being five o'clock, it is time for private members' hour. Committee rise.