Mr. Chairperson (Ben Sveinson): Good morning. Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This morning, this section of the Committee of Supply will be resuming consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Environment. It was agreed at the outset of the Estimates for this department that questions could proceed in a general manner with line items to be passed once the questioning has been concluded. Accordingly, I will open the floor for questions.
Mr. Gregory Dewar (Selkirk): Mr. Chairman, the last time we met we were discussing or just beginning to discuss the new initiative in terms of recycling, and that is the used oil recycling initiative. In terms of the other recycling projects that are currently going on in the province, there is a levy on used tires, there is one on diapers, I believe there is one on liquor bottles, and of course, on containers. All these levies were I believe imposed upon the consumers in this province by the government. Now this oil levy, the money that is used to recycle oil filters and containers and so on, again, it is imposed upon the consumers by a nonprofit industry organization, the Manitoba Association for Resource Recovery Corporation.
Can the minister tell us why there was a change and who initiated this process?
Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Environment): I am happy to report, Mr. Chairman, that the initiative originated with the industry itself. I do not know, I speculate I suppose that maybe the industry seeing the kind of progress being made in provinces, western provinces especially, in areas of the waste stream, perhaps thought they would take the initiative rather than having something imposed on them, maybe design something that would be acceptable on their own, which appears to have been what happened. There were discussions about six years ago between the Canadian Council of Ministers of Environment and the industry, and the process evolved up until early this year when a regulation at our government level enabled the industry through the MARRC to carry on with its program. That is a brief history of how it came about.
Mr. Dewar: Does the minister have a concern that this--well, it is a tax. Just the other day, I purchased some oil and I purchased an oil filter, and there was a 50-cent levy that I had to pay for the oil filter and 30 or 40 cents for the oil.
Is the minister concerned that this nonprofit group has the ability to place this levy upon Manitobans, and what exactly is a government's role in this program?
Mr. McCrae: Well, of course, there are always concerns when you are developing something new or different. We want to ensure that the program is working the way it is designed to and achieving the results that are expected of it. The expected results are something that are shared between the MARRC and the government. Under the regulation there are requirements for the filing of business plans and information with which the government can then make a determination on whether it is achieving the expected results.
So, yes, we are into new territory, but in a way not so, because we have some experience in these other areas to which the honourable member referred. He made the mistake of calling it a tax, which I am very sensitive about, because none of this money flows to the government. Of course it is going to get called that, and I have no illusions about it. I have no doubt that the honourable member will call it that for his own particular reasons, too.
The point is we have found in the past with programs like this an initially grudging sort of approach by consumers who buy a quart of oil or buy a filter or something like that, because, oh, boy, here is another new charge. But this program started with a fairly comprehensive communications package, and I think there is a pretty good level of understanding of what it is we are trying to achieve. People do not like the idea that millions of litres of oil are sort of unaccounted for, and to think that those litres might be in some inappropriate place in our environment is on people's minds too.
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The time is right for this sort of thing, because people are quite willing to accept the concept that the polluter-pays principle should be at work. In this case the manufacturers and distributors of these types of products are doing the right thing. There are the safeguards in place in terms of reporting, and all information respecting this is posted on the public registry so that--it is our program. It is the honourable member's program. It is the oil company's program. It is everybody's program.
Mr. Dewar: What is the government's role in this program? Do you have a representative who sits on this organization and, if so, who is that individual?
Mr. McCrae: The government does not have representation on the MARRC board but, as I have pointed out through the reporting requirements and business plan filing and that sort of information sharing, the government is not outside the information sphere, as it were.
Mr. Dewar: So this organization reports a business plan, tables a business plan with the minister's office?
Mr. McCrae: Yes.
Mr. Dewar: Has that plan been tabled with the minister? I am interested in the revenues that are anticipated from this levy and what are the actions, the planned actions of this organization to try to recycle some of the--and again it has been estimated that there are 14 million litres of used oil that are discarded. It talks about the incredible damage that one litre of oil can have upon fresh water. If you can just tell us the long-term plan that this organization has to recycle this oil.
Mr. McCrae: The business plan is a public document, and if the honourable member would like, we can make it available for him. Everything that the program does is measured against that business plan which is subject to examination and approval by my department.
The revenues to which the honourable member referred are subject to audit by an independent auditor whose job it is would be to look at those revenues and make a determination based on the business plan, whether the revenues are appropriate, too little, too much. If too little, then the MARRC board would then be required to, you know, recommend changes, upward in this case. If there is too much revenue, then that also can be looked at and recommendations can flow from it. It is not my program in this sense. I am very pleased that the government has an oversight function here, but the more we can get these sorts of programs that get the polluter involved in a solution to the problems, the better public buy-in is achievable.
Mr. Dewar: Well, if an individual purchases an oil filter or oil and has some concerns regarding the operations of this organization, what type of recourse do they have if they have concerns? I know it was brought to my attention that--again, there has been nothing confirmed, but apparently it is part of the recycling of oil filters that the oil itself would be extracted from the filter, but the actual filter, the paper filter and the metal container will be discarded. Now that is kind of a concern to me. Where would I go to verify that type of concern?
Mr. McCrae: It is incorrect that the metal filters are simply discarded in some landfill somewhere. They are recycled too and the metal in the filter is recycled metal. It goes to scrap metal people and is recycled into whatever uses those things are recycled into. With respect to the cardboard component of the filter, that too is shredded. It is the type of material that can be used to make things like those fence posts the honourable member is no doubt aware of or curb stops and that sort of thing.
The Miller Environmental company is looking at possibly getting involved in re-refining of the oil. They may be doing that, but the oil presently, some of it is reprocessed into diesel fuel and some of it is re-refined in Saskatchewan at the present time. It becomes a fuel supplement in the western Canadian market. So, basically, when you compare what is happening now with what was happening before, we have sure come a long way and we should be pleased about that. If the honourable member has any ideas that might improve what is going on in this area, his ideas would be welcome, I am sure, by us, but certainly, I am sure, also by the MARRC.
Mr. Dewar: Is there an individual within the MARRC that someone can take their concerns to? I am pleased that the minister was able to deal with the issue of filters, but there may be other issues. Because this is a nonprofit organization somewhat removed from government that is placing this levy on consumers, I just think there should be some mechanism in place so that people can raise their concerns and have their issues addressed.
Mr. McCrae: I am very happy that the honourable member is asking these questions. We will provide him with the name and address and phone number of the executive director of the MARRC, so that he can share ideas or ask questions directly of the MARRC. We will make that available to the honourable member.
Mr. Dewar: Thank you. In the minister's opening comments, he raised the issue of the Environmental Youth Corps. Maybe the minister can provide us some more information regarding this initiative of the government in terms of the budget and how this is financed, which projects have been approved and a list of projects and so on, the budget for each, and how the corps is promoted in Manitoba? How would somebody--if you are interested in finding out some more information about this, where would you approach? The minister's office? Or is there a separate organization that would have information available?
Mr. McCrae: Funding for this initiative is approved on a year-by-year basis by the Sustainable Development Committee of Cabinet, decisions for funding. This program is currently in its seventh year. Total funding to environmental projects for this fiscal year, 1997-98--no, I am sorry, last fiscal year--was $114,260. That was as of January 31 of this year. Intake of applications was scheduled for June 20, July 18, August 22 and September 19 of last year. A total of 54 applications were processed involving over 7,700 youthful Manitobans. There were 54 applications; 46 projects were approved; two were deferred; six declined funding.
A total of 17 youths were provided employment opportunities in supervisory or project co-ordinating roles. It is a program to promote maximized local involvement and volunteer participation of youth between the ages of six and 24 in environment-related projects. In 1997-98, there were 39,660 youths involved. That is fantastic, in my opinion, not because of what got done so much as what got learned along the way. I have been believing for some time that, as much as the honourable member and I think our--I should not talk about our generation because I think I am older than the honourable member; I have to be careful about that.
I think the generation that follows mine, that generation is becoming better placed than my generation was and better informed, and that is really a hopeful thing for the future of environmental stewardship on our planet. There is lots to be done and the more we do, the more we accept that there is more that should be done, but when I mentioned the 39,000 youths, that is the cumulative number of youths over the seven years, but that is a very big number of young people involved in environmental projects. Just think what they are going to teach their kids when they have families of their own. I think it is a very positive thing. The EYC, Environmental Youth Corps, provide Manitoba's young people with an opportunity to prepare for environmental challenges of tomorrow by helping them gain valuable education and experience today.
Just last week, I visited Neelin High School in Brandon and spoke to a class there. The teacher is David Barnes, and they are into various environmental programs. It is a whole semester where they have in high school one teacher who takes them through all of their classes, and they deal with environmental issues on their minds in all of those classes.
I had the privilege of addressing them and actually have them address me, because through the question-and-answer time that we had, we all learned something--probably I learned more than they did, but that is not a bad thing either--and then at the end of the day they presented me with some paper and envelopes that they had produced right there at Neelin High School. So now if I write the honourable member a note in handwriting, I will put it on that paper, so that he will be reminded of what I said about Neelin High School.
A lot of the good things that happen tend to happen in the Westman area, and I think the member for Dauphin (Mr. Struthers) would probably agree with that, and some good things happen in other areas, of course, too. EYC encourages youths to volunteer throughout the province for projects to improve and protect Manitoba's environment. Obviously, at the amounts of these grants, nobody is going to make a great living on it or anything like that, so a big component of this program is a volunteer component which, when that is happening, you know you are really getting something done.
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The program stresses the importance of local action for sustaining the environment. Manitoba youths have increased their appreciation and responsibility towards their environmental surroundings, as well as learned the importance of voluntary community involvement.
I do not know how much more the honourable member wants me to tell him, but the types of projects include community enhancement, riverbank cleanup, water quality--you cannot just clean up the riverbank this year and then it is cleaned up forever because it gets to a point it needs more cleaning up--the projects around composting and recycling, protection of flora and fauna, restoring wildlife habitat, rehabilitation of the natural environment in local parks, wildlife conservation, tree planting.
The objectives of the program are to stimulate the implementation of local volunteer-based, action-oriented projects that provide opportunities for Manitoba youth to be involved in environment-related areas, to increase the level of awareness of and the need for protecting and enhancing the environment and effectively managing resources, to increase the level of awareness of Manitoba youth of the importance of group- and volunteer-based efforts in the solutions to environmental problems and challenges.
The application for this program is by way of an application form. The form is to be sent to the nearest Manitoba Environment office. There are five of them throughout the province. The selection process for applicants is a two-tier process, where applications are first reviewed and assessed by regional screening committees. The final selection is made by a selection committee comprised of representatives of Manitoba Environment, Manitoba Education and Training, and the Sustainable Development Co-ordination Unit. Eligible projects must address environmental quality concerns, including environmental protection, enhancement, rehabilitation, conservation, and resource management. You have to be between six and 24. I do not think the honourable member qualifies anymore, probably quit qualifying about a year ago.
Each project has to have a clearly identifiable beginning and ending, and they provide hands-on experience for volunteering youths. Eligible applicants are charitable and voluntary organizations, environmental organizations, service clubs and schools, local governments including municipalities, band councils and aboriginal organizations, and educational institutions and student groups.
So while there is an employment sort of feature to this, I do not think it is the main feature. I think that things I said about volunteering and so on are really a big part of this, and it has--while it is true that riverbanks get cleaned up and neighbourhoods get cleaned up and so on, there is a real education component here that is very, very important.
Mr. Dewar: Now, in the minister's answer, I believe he said the budget is $114,000 for the program.
Mr. McCrae: It is $200,000; $200,000 is allocated. Last year $114,000 was expended.
Mr. Dewar: So how is this program funded? Is it through general revenues or is it like the Sustainable Development Innovations Fund, which is money that originated from a levy placed on a consumer product? How is the program funded?
Mr. McCrae: The disposable diaper and liquor bottle levies find their way to the Sustainable Development Innovations Fund and a certain amount is set aside for this program.
Mr. Dewar: I would like to ask the minister to provide me with a list of projects and the areas that receive these projects, in which areas of the province, and the budget for each of the projects. As well, who has the final approval when it comes to the granting of the youth corps? Who makes the final approval as to who receives funding or not?
Mr. McCrae: Well, as I pointed out to the honourable member, in the regions of Manitoba there are these committees from Environment, Education and Training, and I forget the other one, but those committees make recommendations to the minister, me, and the minister then distributes the funds. So that is the process that is followed and, yes, the honourable member wants to know which projects and where they were, and we will get all that for him. He asked me last day about the Groundwater Rehabilitation Program for the flood of 1997. Do you want me to give you that information now?
Mr. Dewar: Sure.
Mr. McCrae: The honourable member says yes. So the number of wells--maybe I will just table the information and then the honourable member, if he wants, can ask further questions.
The honourable member also asked about the Freedom of Information requests, and here they are. For the most part, they have all been granted and information provided. You can see on the document I am tabling the status of each of them.
Mr. Dewar: So the minister will provide me with a list of the projects and a budget for each one. How is the Youth Corps and the concept promoted throughout Manitoba? Again, I cannot recall seeing any type of promotional information. Maybe he can enlighten us as to how this program is promoted.
Mr. McCrae: Just to clarify, the honourable member asked for a list of the projects and the budgets. What I am saying is I will give him a list of the projects and the amounts for each one. If he wants to break it down further with a particular one, then we could deal with that.
In terms of the people's awareness of the Environmental Youth Corps program, our regional offices play their role, but not everybody in Manitoba finds their way into the regional Environment office, and we know that. Education and Training plays quite a role in making people aware of this program through the schools themselves, and I understand that is where the bulk of the promotion of this program takes place.
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Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River): Mr. Chairman, I would like to take a bit of time and ask the minister a few questions about the department's role as far as the expansion of the hog industry in this province. The minister is well aware that the industry is going to grow, but it is not going to grow without controversy. There has been a fair amount of it throughout the province, and it does not seem to be coming to an end. We had the issues in the Interlake. We now have with the plant being built in Brandon and some people wanting to expand into hog production in that area, not necessarily in the minister's constituency but the areas around it, there has been controversy there, people opposing the expansions--Netley Creek. Now we have the ones around Portage. There are many areas where there is controversy.
When people come to us they are very concerned about expansion, and in most cases people say they are not opposed to the hog industry growing. They state quite clearly that they know the industry is going to grow, but they want it to grow in a sustainable way. They are not even saying: not in my backyard. But they want assurances that when a proposal is being made that they have the opportunity to have input and their input is also being taken seriously.
I will refer particularly to the Netley Creek project where people said to us that--and they are concerned about the location of the proposed operation in that area. They have told us that they have come to the Department of Environment and raised their concerns, but those concerns did not appear to be taken seriously. In fact, they were told that the project will probably go ahead, even though there is concern with the location of the site. The people in the community have drawn up a map showing where the water table is and outlining what their concerns are. So I would ask the minister how he sees addressing this to ensure that when local people have a concern with an operation coming to their area that they in fact are taken seriously and that the local input has an impact on whether or not an operation can establish in a particular area, and that the concerns of local people are taken seriously, particularly when they are concerned with the possibility of an impact on water supply.
Mr. McCrae: The honourable member has focused on potential harm to water supply, which is what I believe is really probably the most important consideration. I mean there are lots of considerations in an expansion of the kind we are going to see in Manitoba and have already seen. Of course, she is right that, coming from Brandon, I am very aware of the issues that arise when you have an operation of the magnitude of the Maple Leaf one coming to Brandon. I mean, I have heard estimates that hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of new hog barns and expanded operations are going to be required to keep the Maple Leaf operation working at capacity or at reasonable levels in the city of Brandon to provide all that employment and all that economic activity.
There is more to it than simply the issue of the water, as the honourable member would know, in neighbourhoods and in communities, but dealing with the water part, we share that concern that people have. I mean, as a government, we need to do that. We want to see development in our province, but we also want it to be sustainable. That is why the previous so-called regulation we had for livestock manure and mortalities was seen to be, and indeed was, insufficient for the kind of growth we are going to see in livestock. That is not only hogs but it is other forms of livestock as well, including the exotic ones that we have never really seen being raised in Manitoba before. I know hogs are getting all the attention these days, but that is not the only area of concern.
So what we came forward with was a new regulation which, in anticipation of the growth that was going to happen and because of the growth in the industry that was already happening, it was the right thing to do, given the concerns that the honourable member was talking about. So the consultation process began something like 20 months ago and it was pretty widespread. Consultations included, near the end of it all, open houses in seven or eight Manitoba communities. Even at that late stage there were issues being raised that were addressed in the final touches to the regulation.
So we are requiring, as the honourable member knows, the filing of annual reports, the requirement for the reporting of spills, set out in the legislation how much manure of different kinds is appropriate for different amounts of land to be spread on if it is going to be spread. It does not allow spreading during winter months for the larger operations. From a scientific standpoint, I think there is comfort around the fact that if this regulation is followed and properly enforced, that should provide the protection we need. Nonetheless, I think there is fail safe in the regulation that allows environmental officials to take an active role. Even with the prescribed amounts that are allowed, there may be certain environmental circumstances which would require a different treatment in a particular situation, and that is allowed for.
The regulation also calls for proper storage facilities, whether it be lagoon-type facilities or the newer concrete storage facilities for manure. So it deals with all of those items and ultimately we were able to achieve support for a regulated livestock environment, if you like, which other provinces that are seeing growth are looking pretty closely at what is going on here. It is interesting to note that in Saskatchewan and in Alberta, environment ministers there and agriculture ministers there are openly talking about how they do not regulate in these areas. In Manitoba we do. And where is all the growth happening? Right here in Manitoba, and the reason, I suggest, is that our regulation makes good sense, not only to producers but also to ordinary citizens of our province. In order to be sustainable, you need to raise livestock in an environmentally appropriate way and in a way which is appropriate for the welfare of the animals. The major markets that Maple Leaf and others are working for, Asia, for example, those people are watching very closely at the conditions under which we produce product in our province, and when we are sort of state of the art, they know that this is a good place to buy their product from.
The extent to which you do it properly is noticed by those people who do business with us, so it is good business as well to do it right. I think I have covered most of that but the regulation. The honourable member is talking about larger issues too, and that is how some communities are still concerned. That does not surprise me because what was not stated in the honourable member's question is that there is an odour with the production of certain livestock species.
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The honourable member named a number of communities, but I know that Deloraine has had a look at this issue, Hartney, Melita, the R.M. of Elton, right at the outskirts of Brandon and others in the process where communities are having a look at this and having debates. That is not a bad thing that these debates happen, but from an environmental standpoint our regulation makes sense. Now, from the other standpoint, land use, that is still something that municipalities are grappling with, but I think they are going to be able to deal with the issue a little better with a regulatory environment that makes some sense.
Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Chairman, the minister covered a broad range of things, and I want to say that there are other communities as well. I want to say that in my own constituency there is a hog production, one barn that is going up, and there are other areas as well. The minister says that it is because our regulations are so good, that that is why people are coming here. I think he has to recognize, too, that it might be just the opposite.
I understand that in Saskatchewan--Saskatchewan tells me that their regulations are more stringent than ours. Although they do want the industry to grow in Saskatchewan and they do want it to grow in Alberta, it is not as if they do not have regulations as well. So, Mr. Chairman, I think one of the reasons that we are having growth in the hog industry in Manitoba is that we have some of the cheapest grain in the country as a result of the change to the Crow and the transportation system, and people are looking for alternatives.
The minister also mentioned that I did not talk about odour. It is true, many people, one of the first reasons people think about when a hog barn is coming in is the fact that there might be odour, and it might have an impact on their quality of life. A tremendous amount of work is going into controlling odour, but I worry about--when we control odour, if we can control odour, then people miss the other issue. For me, the main issue is the quality of water and the impacts on our water when we start to spread a large amount of manure. We have to ensure that, when operations are being established, there is adequate land base for the wastes to be spread. But more than adequate land base, we have to ensure that the land base is of a quality that can absorb the wastes, and it is not going to end up running off and into ditches or going into the water table.
A good example of that is what has happened in the Interlake. There have been some real disasters in the Interlake as far as where hog barns have been allowed to be built and have caused some real problems for the people. Of course, that has resulted in other people being concerned with hog barns coming into their areas. I do not think that you can ever be too careful in ensuring that things are being done properly to ensure that water does not become contaminated. We certainly do not want to face, say, 20 years down the road, some of the problems that we have seen in the United States in areas where hog production has become so concentrated that it has had an impact on the quality of water.
What I think we have to be doing is various departments have to work together, between Agriculture and Rural Development and Environment. I would want the departments to consider whether or not we could be doing a master plan of this province. We have all the technology available. We have soil types; we know where the water tables are across the province. Why can the government not take the initiative to do such a thing and put out a map of the province? When somebody is proposing to build a hog operation of a larger size--and certainly we do not have to go to this extent when we have family-sized operations--but when we have a larger operation, we should be able to, as a province, say, okay, you are proposing a barn, we have the studies of this area.
The studies show us that in this particular area it will just not be feasible for you to build a barn here because of certain conditions, but we can show you places on a map that are feasible. By doing this, by working together with various departments, by working together with municipalities, I think that you could alleviate some of the problems that municipalities face right now because there are real challenges for municipalities, some that have zoning by-laws and some that do not. You have proponents of operations going from one municipality to the other and just moving over the border and causing some problems.
It is a major issue that has to be addressed, and I think that we have to look at ways by working together to ensure that when proponents of operations come to our province that it can be developed in a sustainable way, that we can ensure that it will be economical for the people that want to build the operations, but it will be also sustainable for our communities, for the people who choose to live in a rural area that we are not going to be sacrificing the quality of life.
Now, we know that in other industries when there is not proper environmental regulations that there have been, if you look at the mining industry, for example, when things were not managed properly, problems have been created. So what we have to ensure is that we do not allow the same thing to happen in this industry. I know that quite often the government likes to say when we ask these kinds of questions, oh, well, you are asking the questions, you are raising them because you are against the hog industry expanding. Well, I think that is very, very foolish to be saying those kinds of things because all of us know that the industry is going to grow, and farmers really have not got much choice. With the changes that were made to the transportation system, it really is not viable to grow grain just for export anymore, but farmers cannot change over completely to other cereal crops because they are an important part of the crop rotation. You have to be able to grow those crops.
So you have to look for another way to use the crops, and certainly there is a growing market for red meat in Asia, although I am not sure with things the way they are going in some of those countries right now, I am sure that people who are making investments in the hog industry are a little bit nervous right now with some of the things that we see happening in some of those countries right now as to whether or not there is going to be a market for the product or whether or not those people who are spending their money on red meat right now are going to be spending their money on other things. The economy is just very, very unstable in those parts of the country, so I am not sure, I think we might see a decline in the revenues that people who are involved in hog production right now, and of course they are working on a very, very narrow margin.
So those are the kinds of things we have to be really concerned about is looking at how we can do a plan for this province. I would ask the minister whether he would consider taking on such a proposal whereby we would put in place a plan where we would look at soil types, water quality, water levels across the province and ensure that there is planning done, and there would be more guidance for those people who are proposing operations and perhaps give some support to municipalities and alleviate some of the problems that we have as far as community concern.
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Mr. McCrae: I thank the honourable members of this committee for their forbearance as I double with their colleague the honourable member for Burrows (Mr. Martindale). My problems are not over yet, but I do appreciate the honourable members' forbearance.
She is right that, while order is indeed an issue for communities and is basically something that comes under the farm practices legislation in our province, water is, I believe, the primary concern. Additionally, we do not want to ruin the land from which we are able to grow fine, fine crops in Manitoba. That is why agronomic principles are taken into account in the drafting of the regulation we have. I have appreciated the approach taken by the New Democratic Party on this whole issue because I think it is important to their communities, just like ours in Progressive Conservative ridings, where there is so much agricultural activity going on these days. This is a good thing, and we just want to make sure that we do not burst this balloon that we have going.
I have been approached specifically by one of the ministers in western Canada to find out what it is that we are doing so well here in Manitoba with our environmental regulation because they are starting to hear some things about it. We have, I do not think there is any doubt, the most effective environmental regulation of livestock manure anywhere in the country. They are coming to us, and they are asking us what it is that we are doing. There is a good chance that they may want to emulate some of the things we are doing here, so I appreciate the things the honourable member has said.
I believe that the department and the government are very well aware of the concerns that are there, but I believe also the regulation that we now have in place will have the effect of protecting the water resource that is so precious to life on this planet.
Ms. Wowchuk: The minister talks about reaching out and talking to people, and we have done a fair amount of that. One of the issues that was raised with us--and, Mr. Chairperson, you will be aware of this because it is an issue that was raised in your constituency, and that is that there are many, many lagoons that are not listed and are not being monitored.
So I would ask the minister whether it falls under his department to ensure that all waste lagoons that are built are registered, what steps his department is taking to catalogue, to make a list of lagoons, and whether or not they are being inspected. We are told that they are not. I would ask the minister whether or not he has adequate staff to ensure that this is happening, and what steps he is going to take to resolve it.
Mr. McCrae: Mr. Chairman, I think the honourable member did in her initial remarks make some specific references, and if she might repeat them we could deal with them, but we do need specific references here because we are just as concerned as she is if there are any breaches going on or any flouting of the law or anything like that because, frankly, from an industry standpoint it is important and, obviously, from an environmental standpoint it is important. If there are specific examples of issues that are arising in certain areas where there are not inspections and there are supposed to be or someone from the department is just simply allowing things to go on that are not supposed to be going on, I would like to know about that specifically, because we will track them down and deal with those issues.
Ms. Wowchuk: I have not seen the specific sites, but what has been brought to our attention is not new sites that are being built but sites that have been there for some time and sites that are not being monitored. The people of the area are worried about increased production, so then that means increased pressure on existing lagoons, and they want to see it addressed. So I will get for the minister maybe a little bit more detail and have a discussion perhaps with the member for the area, and we can see that the issue is corrected.
This is not an attempt in any way to try to control somebody's production, but it is an attempt to ensure that where there is production that it is not going to increase in a way that is going to again have a negative impact on the area but also on the water supply. I think that we have to get these kinds of things under control and, if people are aware of them, that the department should follow up on them.
I guess the other question to the minister was: does the minister have adequate staff? I know there has been a cut in environmental staff. Is the minister comfortable that his staff level is adequate to monitor and keep on top of all the increases in lagoons and increased hog production that we are going to be seeing over the next little while?
Mr. McCrae: I am in complete agreement with the comments of the honourable member. There are existing operations that may grow to the point where they will come within the bounds of the regulation. Even smaller ones, if there are conditions that exist that even a smaller operation can create an environmental hazard, we are entitled under the regulation to do something about it. It is those areas I think, those specific cases that may indeed become issues.
The larger, brand-new operations, the new operators are not uncomfortable with the regulatory requirements. They are prepared to make the investment, to put in place the appropriate mitigation facilities, appropriate lagoons or storage facilities. They are prepared to do it because obviously there is expected to be return on their investment and they can look after that.
But, yes, no one regulation takes care of every single thing. I am not foolish enough to think that everything is looked after. I believe the challenge is indeed going to be to ensure the department gets the appropriate resources. I think we are appropriately resourced right now, but we will not be if the growth continues. We do have plans to add six additional people to the task, as we were discussing with the honourable member for Selkirk (Mr. Dewar) last day and, if the growth gets beyond even those expectations that there are right now and we need more enforcement capacity, more inspection capacity, that is something we are committed to addressing.
Mr. Chairperson: Before I recognize the honourable member for Swan River, I was wondering if, with leave of the committee, I could say just a very few words about it seeing that my constituency is involved somehow. Would there be leave? Agreed?
Some Honourable Members: Agreed.
An Honourable Member: I agree as long as you do not abuse the privilege, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Chairperson: I will not. I just wanted to comment very briefly on the possibility of a couple of places or a few places that were in some way abusing slightly or otherwise the environment. I had those put forward to me at the time in my constituency, and I did have those places checked out. I was given two names by the same people that she was. I checked out those two. One was a newer place that did have a problem, but the people from Environment were already working on it right from the beginning. The second one, indeed, did not have a problem. I have not had anything else besides that brought to my attention.
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Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Chairman, I want to move on to another topic briefly. Although I know that this is a very important topic, the expansion of the hog industry and the way we are going to manage the environment as the industry grows, but the minister is aware of time. We all have time restraints on the amount of time we can spend on Estimates, and I want to take a short time to discuss another issue. It is an issue that I raised last--
Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. A vote has been requested in the other committee room. We will recess and proceed to the Chamber for the vote.
The committee recessed at 11:11 a.m.
The committee resumed at 11.49 a.m.
Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. This committee of Environment will resume consideration of the Environment Estimates, and I believe the honourable minister was speaking at the time.
Mr. McCrae: I believe I was just wrapping up. The members from the New Democratic Party were raising very important issues related to the expansion of the livestock industry in Manitoba and the accompanying environmental concerns. We have talked about those, and I think we are basically on the same track in this regard. The caution I am taking from the comments is to ensure that we are properly resourced as a department to enforce this regulation, and we fully intend to do just that.
Mr. Dewar: I would like to, as well, ask a few questions regarding the new regulations. Perhaps the minister can just highlight some of the changes in terms of the regulations, the new amendments and so on, if he could do that for us now.
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Mr. McCrae: Yes, Mr. Chairman, if I can get hold of this allergy of mine that is making me sneeze all the time the last week or so. [interjection] Well, I am going to do that, too.
The new regulation, which came into effect April 1, deals with all the major aspects of the livestock industry as it relates to environmental protection. It deals with storage of manure. It deals with animal units. It identifies how many animal units are the subject of this regulation, so that if you are producing something below a certain level of animal units, then you are not deemed automatically to be an environmental hazard. You still cannot escape environmental protection measures even if you are below the 400 animal unit threshold. It deals with the reporting of spills. It deals with the filing of annual reports respecting your manure management plan. It deals with winter-spreading. So those are the areas of concern for people concerned about the environment.
Indeed, scientific concerns are addressed. Once you take all the politics and rhetoric away, you are still left with some scientific environmental issues, and I think that we have dealt with them in a responsible way in this regulation.
Mr. Dewar: The 400 animal units, I understand that this is different for different animals. As it relates to hogs, what size of an operation would fit into the 400 animal unit requirement under the new regulation in terms of winter-spreading?
Mr. McCrae: I can make available this afternoon for the honourable member a table of all the different kinds of animals and how many animals would be caught, as it were, by this regulation.
Mr. Dewar: I know there was a public review of the new regulations, and I attended a meeting in Portage. There were a number of producers there. The format of the meeting I think made it difficult for a lot of the producers to put forward their concerns, but what are some of the things that the department has heard from producers in terms of these regulations?
There was a presentation made and there was a table set up with the regulations, and then there was the opportunity for producers to talk to some of the environmental officers there. I listened into different discussions, and there were some individuals there who were saying, you know, these regulations are going to mean the end of the industry.
There was some of that mentioned in terms of the winter-spreading and so on. What is some of the feedback that the department did get from their public review of the regulations?
Mr. McCrae: Some typical-type feedback, and you get the other side too, some typical comments were: well, the winter that you are prescribing in the regulation is too long; you are not being realistic on that. What is a spill? How much do you have to spill before it is a spill? If you spill a cupful, is that something you have to report? We had those kinds of comments, and, yes, this is going to ruin the industry and that sort of thing.
At the end of the day though, the consensus, I believe, is reflected in the regulation. I do not think the heavy hand of government is evident anywhere in that regulation. We had farm people coming forward and saying, well, this is going to be too tough; you are not giving us enough time to adjust our practices, so we looked at those areas as well. Some people more on the environmental side of the argument would say, well, you know, your winter is way too long or you are way too short--way too long, I think. Anyway, you are allowing too much spreading in the winter, so you would get both sides of it.
I think there was a genuine effort on the part of the people working in the department and the members of my caucus, my colleagues, who ultimately had some input as well, the genuine effort to get the right balance there. At the end of the day, I think when you hear from outsiders that we have got the toughest scenario going, it is encouraging on the one hand, but I think that some of the concerns were evident simply because in the draft stages of this, it was not clear what was going to be the end result, so people certainly wanted to get their concerns in. The small operators, for example, are you going to do away with the family farm with this kind of regulation? Obviously, that was not what our intention was, and our firm belief is that is not what is happening here.
I have met personally with individual farmers. I met with community representatives who had concerns. This was as we were leading up to the end of it, but at the end of it all, the announcement was almost anticlimactic. It was done at the Winter Fair in Brandon. Yes, we were noticed with the announcement, but in a positive way overall, and I have had very little correspondence since this regulation was proclaimed, pro or con.
Mr. Dewar: I recall one of the concerns raised by a producer. Again, I was just sort of listening in on some of the conversation, and he said, well, you know, it is fine to ban winter-spreading, and I think it is a good idea, but it does not lessen the quantity of manure that is produced by the industry. If you do not spread it in the winter, you know, they have to store it, then it has to be spread at another time, I guess. What actions are you, maybe yourself, and the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Enns), taking in terms of research?
We have heard this when we are out there meeting with people that there could be more research done on this to try to recycle some of this waste that literally is going to be billions of litres. I would suggest that it is produced every year by the livestock industry. Well, pigs, in particular, but it does not only include hogs, of course, it is all types of livestock. Has the minister looked at the capacity of the province to absorb this quantity of waste?
Mr. McCrae: I think it is fair to say yes. Agriculture, Environment, everybody involved from the government side of it is looking at a virtual redoubling of production in our province. That means there is going to be a redoubling of animal manure in the next very few years. Now, I understand we will be able to pick up on this a little later as we proceed. I will maybe hold that thought and we will talk a little bit more about it.
The member did ask for information about the Environmental Youth Corps. I have a document here which I will table so that the honourable member can get it. It sets out all the different projects.
Mr. Chairperson: The time being 12 noon, I am interrupting proceedings. The Committee of Supply will resume sitting this afternoon following conclusion of Routine Proceedings.