4th-36th Vol. 72-Oral Questions

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, it has been reported over the weekend that more than advice was given to Native Voice candidate Darryl Sutherland. In fact, Kris Barrett, son of Cubby Barrett, both of whom are known Tory supporters, ordered 1,000 buttons from Maple Leaf Rubber Stamp.

I would like to ask the Premier: did he investigate this issue of being actively involved in the campaign as part of his investigation, and did he investigate this matter with either Mr. Sokolyk or his Deputy Premier (Mr. Downey), who was the co-chair of their campaign committee and a member of the PC Manitoba club?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, obviously I would have had no knowledge of rubber stamps being ordered, so I could not have made that investigation.

Mr. Doer: Madam Speaker, the Premier stated on June 24 in this Chamber: I spoke to the people in our party who are responsible for campaign organization. They had absolutely no knowledge of this alleged affair.

I would like to ask the Premier: did he talk to Mr. Sokolyk about this so-called campaign organization, and was he misleading the House or was Mr. Sokolyk misleading him?

Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, I was not misleading the House. Obviously, the members opposite have been calling for a complete and independent inquiry, and by virtue of the note that I have sent to the member opposite, I have indicated to him that we are prepared, whenever members opposite give us leave to do so, to amend the resolution which was introduced last Thursday to appoint former Chief Justice Alfred Monnin of the Court of Appeal as the commissioner of inquiry to get to the bottom of all these allegations.

I think that it does not benefit anybody other than perhaps New Democrats to make a political football of this, Madam Speaker. We want to get to the bottom of this. We have the means of an inquiry being set up that will get to the bottom of it. I would suggest to the member opposite, if he has any allegations to make, that he ought to make them to the Honourable Alfred Monnin and to get on with the matter of trying to investigate this as thoroughly as possible.

Mr. Doer: Madam Speaker, the Premier never answered the question. Of course, we must remind him that a week ago he said there was nothing to the allegations. Then he said two days later it was going to be referred back to Elections Manitoba, and then on Thursday he said we had to be satisfied with returning to the Chief Electoral Officer. We attempted to influence the government all Thursday night. The Premier has changed his position four or five times in the Chamber on the process to deal with this. What worries me is the Premier may be changing his word in this Legislature, which is subject to Question Period, I might add, in which we will continue to raise questions.

Madam Speaker, the Premier never answered the question of whether he spoke to his chief political staff, Mr. Sokolyk, about the issue of campaign resources for the Native Voice candidate in the Interlake riding. I would like to ask the Premier: as part of his investigation, did he discuss this issue with Mr. Cubby Barrett, a member of the PC Manitoba Fund and a colleague of the Deputy Premier, as a member of the PC Manitoba Fund?

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Mr. Filmon: As I indicated, Madam Speaker, subsequent to my making certain inquiries, very, very shortly after that, probably within hours, it was not only reported publicly but various different interviews took place that indicated that the Chief Electoral Officer had control of the investigation, so I did not proceed to go through and talk to all 23,000 members of our party in the province. I put my faith and trust in the process that all of us support under The Elections Act and The Elections Finances Act and the investigations of the Chief Electoral Officer, which is the appropriate way that it should be done.

So, Madam Speaker, I say to the member opposite, if he really wants to get to the bottom of this, what he ought to do is have his party deal with the resolution that is before us and get on with the appointment of retired Chief Justice Alfred Monnin so that all of us can be assured that we are going to have all of the facts and all of the relevant information on this matter.

Mr. Doer: Madam Speaker, the Premier in this Legislature, in Hansard, stated: I spoke to the people in our party who were responsible for campaign organization.

I ask again: did he or did he not speak to Mr. Sokolyk, the principal secretary of the Premier, the campaign organizer, one of the fundraisers of the Tory party? Did he or did he not speak to him about this matter?

Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, I will say unequivocally that I spoke to Mr. Sokolyk about this issue. The fact of the matter is, though, that members opposite want to twist this and say did you ask him this, did you ask him that, was he here, was he there--all those things. That is the kind of thing that ought to be investigated thoroughly and completely by retired Chief Justice Alfred Monnin, and that is the process that we are prepared to put in place. I would urge members opposite to get on with it.

Mr. Doer: Madam Speaker, when the Premier discussed this matter with his principal secretary, was he assured by his principal secretary that they were only giving, quote, advice to the Native Voice candidates? Was the Premier alerted to the fact that this was way beyond advice? The member for the Interlake (Mr. C. Evans) is correct. He was running against two Tory campaigns in the riding. Was he told or informed that in fact they were ordering specific resources for the Native Voice candidate right out of the PC headquarters in the Interlake?

Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, those are all things that should appropriately be looked at by the Chief Justice, and we will trust his investigation and conclusions.

Mr. Doer: I trust the Premier now is going to expand the scope of the--I am pleased to see he is making changes every day. I would hope now, Madam Speaker, that the Premier will expand the scope of the investigation to look at the ethical action in the Premier's Office and to look at the morality of what has happened. So, if he is truly courageous today, he will agree to expand the scope to go beyond just the narrow scope that was given to the former commission on Thursday last?

I would like to ask the same question to the Premier. Given the fact that he said he investigated this matter with his--and I want to get the quote right--people who are responsible for fundraising and campaign organization, did he discuss this matter, investigate this matter with the Deputy Premier (Mr. Downey) who is a member of the PC Manitoba Fund and also the co-chair of the election campaign for the Conservative Party?

Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, this is precisely the kind of questioning that should be asked by the inquiry. That is precisely the kind of--the innuendo, all the innuendo, all the allegations, all the things--[interjection]

Madam Speaker: Order, please.

Mr. Filmon: I cannot respond when I am being shouted down by the member for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak).

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Mr. Doer: Madam Speaker, I asked the question: did you or did you not discuss this matter as part of your investigation with the co-chair of your election planning committee and a member of the PC Manitoba Fund, one Mr. Downey?

I would like to ask another question: did you discuss this matter pursuant to your commitment in Hansard that you would discuss this issue with your campaign organization? Did you discuss this with Val Hueging?

Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, I think all of these things are appropriate matters that should be investigated by the inquiry.

Mr. Doer: Again the Premier is stonewalling. If he wants to expand the scope of this investigation to include the morality and lack of ethics in the Premier's Office, we would welcome that kind of change.

Madam Speaker, a further question. You did not answer whether you discussed this as part of your investigation with your Deputy Premier (Mr. Downey). You did not confirm or deny that you had not discussed it with Val Hueging. I would like to ask the Premier the same question. As part of your investigation, a person well known to the Premier, a person who has contact with the Premier, Mr. Cubby Barrett, a member of the PC Manitoba Fund-did he investigate Mr. Cubby Barrett when he made the statement that they had, quote, absolutely no knowledge of this affair?

Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, the only stonewalling that is taking place right now is that by the New Democrats who refuse to permit the appointment of a commission of inquiry with former Chief Justice Alfred Monnin in charge. As long as they want to do that, that is fine, but we now know what their interests are in this, and they are not in getting at the truth. They are only their own political interests.

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): I think we are getting somewhere. The Premier has said he is interested in getting to the truth. The public is interested in getting at the truth. Will the Premier expand the scope of this investigation to include the decisions made by him, his senior staff, his campaign staff? Will it include the ethics of what happened in the Interlake, Swan River and Dauphin? Will it include the allegations of the biggest political immorality that ever happened in a recent political election in Canada? Will he expand the scope and get to the truth?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, there is no limitation to what former Chief Justice Alfred Monnin can do. In fact, if he needs any alterations with respect to time, with respect to anything, he will get them. I made that commitment last Thursday, and I repeat that commitment now.

Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): My questions are for the Premier. Over the weekend, Madam Speaker, most members of this Legislature heard public discussion about Tory alleged activities in the 1995 election. Some of them were reflected in the press in comments such as, and I quote: if the allegations are true, then it is a political scandal of significant proportions; the Premier should recognize that these are serious issues of ethics and morality; and assertions that this has undermined public confidence in the democratic process in the province.

I want to ask the Premier to do the right thing, to ensure as he can that the inquiry is a public inquiry, and that a written record of testimony is kept and made public.

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, the member opposite makes my point. We have to ascertain if the allegations are true. That is why we have a commission of inquiry with someone, I believe, of the highest respect and integrity, former Chief Justice of the Court of Appeal of this province. The members opposite made comparisons to when Wilson Parasiuk was being investigated, and they appointed the predecessor to Mr. Monnin, Mr. Freedman.

I have absolute and complete faith and trust in Mr. Monnin to get to the bottom of this.

Ms. Friesen: Will the Premier make the commitment today then that the inquiry will be made in public, that testimony will be kept in written record and will be made available to the public so the public may judge? Those are the clear principles on which we found our legal system.

Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, Mr. Monnin, as retired Chief Judge of the Court of Appeal of the province of Manitoba, knows and understands the principles of our legal system I think slightly better than the member for Wolseley. So I would not presume to tell him how to do his job. He will be required to make his findings public so that all of the information that he gathers and all of the conclusions and recommendations that he makes will be made to the public.

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Ms. Friesen: I want to ask the Premier how the public interest of Manitoba is served by having an inquiry in which we will never know, we may never know, who has testified and what their testimony was. We may never be able to draw our own conclusions. How is the public interest of Manitoba served in that case? He has the power to do it. Why will he not make that commitment?

Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, you know, it is one thing for members opposite to have said last week that they do not trust the Chief Electoral Officer. It is yet another thing for them to say that they do not trust or have confidence in the integrity of--

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Madam Speaker: Order, please.

Mr. Filmon: It is another thing for the member for Wolseley to be challenging the integrity and the ability of Mr. Justice Monnin.

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Madam Speaker: Order, please.

Ms. Friesen: Madam Speaker, I think you know and I think the rest of the House knows that I challenge the Premier's integrity in not calling a public inquiry. I never indicated any question about Judge Monnin or any other judge in this province. The issue is: why would the Premier not call a public inquiry with public evidence and a written record?

Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for Wolseley does not have a point of order. It is clearly a dispute over the facts.

Madam Speaker, the member opposite knows that her colleague for Crescentwood argued that some people should not be interviewed because they were afraid of their circumstances. He was not willing to give us names of people. He said people feared being investigated and being publicly identified. They cannot have it both ways.

Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Over the past week we have seen a rather remarkable spectacle in this House, given the fact that we are clearly faced with one of the largest political scandals involving election fraud in recent history in this country. The first step of the Premier was to say it was not new. Then he attacked the people who were making the statements public about the involvement of very senior Tory officials. He then went back to the CEO. Today he is appointing a judge.

I would just like to ask the Premier: why does he not go the final step and give Judge Monnin what he needs to be able to do the job, the scope to do the job and the ability directed out clearly in the motion to have public hearings to make sure that we restore our confidence in the electoral process in this province?

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Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, that is precisely what we have done. We have given Judge Monnin the capability to do what he needs to get the job done, and if in any way he feels constrained, he has the ability to ask for more resources, for more time, for whatever he needs to get the job done. We are quite prepared to give it to him because we want to get to the bottom of this.

Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Thompson, with a supplementary question.

Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Madam Speaker, if the Premier expects anyone to believe that this Premier, who a week ago was completely stonewalling, wants to get to the bottom of this, will he at least go one step further than he did earlier today when he confirmed, after one week of questioning, that he did speak to Taras Sokolyk? Will he now indicate who else he spoke to and not start by stonewalling the inquiry even before it is started by refusing to answer questions about Val Hueging, Cubby Barrett and others today in Question Period? Why will he not indicate whom he spoke to?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, I can assure the member for Thompson that every single member in our party, that every single member of our government will co-operate absolutely, completely with the inquiry, with Judge Monnin. This is the only way to get at it. So the only people who are stonewalling right now are the members opposite who refuse to deal with the resolution, who refuse to give the--

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Madam Speaker: Order, please.

Mr. Filmon: --who refuse to approve the inquiry so that it can get on with the job.

Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Thompson, with a supplementary.

Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): My final supplementary: will the Premier recognize that one of the major concerns we have about this inquiry is the scope, and particularly, will he ensure that such questions as to whether Cubby Barrett, who was integral and part of this vote fraud scheme--will he ensure that the question of whether he also received a liquor licence in Cross Lake in June of the same year, when the previous owner had been denied that on three separate occasions--will he ensure that this inquiry has the ability to look at whether indeed there was any kickback to Mr. Cubby Barrett because of his involvement in this vote fraud scheme?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, under The Evidence Act, the inquiry has a wide, wide mandate in which it can operate. Anything and everything that might have relevance to the allegations that are being made can and, I am sure, will be investigated.

Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, I am personally absolutely disgusted. I feel very shameful to be inside this Chamber with what I have seen happen, and I think this goes to both sides. We have undercut the independence of Elections Manitoba. Now, if we have a complaint with respect to an election, are we expected to go to the government of the day in order to call for an appeal? This government has done a disservice to the independence of Elections Manitoba.

My question to the government is: will it have the guts to call for an LAMC meeting, to call for a Privileges and Elections--and the Elections Manitoba office should come before it. Either this government supports Elections Manitoba or it dismisses the Chief Electoral Officer. You cannot have it both ways.

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, I have a great deal of sympathy for the motivation behind the member's outburst. Last week both he and I said on numerous occasions in this House that we had complete confidence in the office of the Chief Electoral Officer and that he was the appropriate body, given his responsibility for The Elections Act and The Elections Finances Act, to carry out this inquiry. But, as a servant of the Legislature, the Chief Electoral Officer places great importance on enjoying the confidence of all members of this House. Unfortunately, given the public criticisms and comments that were made on the record, the Chief Electoral Officer contacted the Clerk of the Executive Council on Friday to indicate that he did not feel that he enjoyed the confidence of all members of this House. Therefore he asked not to be burdened with that responsibility as the commissioner of inquiry.

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So, Madam Speaker, I think we are fortunate to have Mr. Justice Monnin agree to do this. I believe the former Chief Justice of the Court of Appeal is indeed somebody who will carry this out absolutely thoroughly, absolutely completely and with all integrity and independence that this inquiry requires.

Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, I want to make it very clear. It was the Chief Electoral Officer then, from what I understand, given the Premier's response--I ask the Premier, it is because of the Chief Electoral Officer's request to be withdrawn out of the process that in fact that has occurred. It is not because the government of the day has decided to undercut Elections Manitoba and the independence of that office.

Mr. Filmon: Yes, Madam Speaker, the Chief Electoral Officer has asked the government to withdraw his name from appointment as the commissioner.

Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, given that, I would ask that the urgency of dealing with the independence of the Elections Manitoba office, which Manitobans for years have trusted their confidence in, in terms of providing a democratic process for all Manitobans, will the Premier acknowledge that in fact there is a need for an LAMC or a Privileges and Elections committee to sit down with that particular office to restore all-party confidence in that office? If that cannot be done, it is time the CEO leave.

Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, the law guarantees his independence. I would fear that, by having him come at the request or demand or invitation of the House, we would be treading on that independence. So I have to say, with all due respect to the motivation and the sincerity of the member opposite, that I do not agree with his urging.

Mr. Tim Sale (Crescentwood): Madam Speaker, I am sure that the First Minister has received the same kind of advice that we have from legal authorities, that the scope of this inquiry is very specifically limited by the wording of the motion which he has put before the House. The limiting of the scope to The Elections Act and The Elections Finances Act does not provide for other illegalities that may have occurred, for example, potentially under the Criminal Code, or in regard to the questions of ethics or morality.

Will the First Minister, in addition to appointing former Chief Justice Monnin to head the inquiry, amend this motion so that the scope is broad and expressly includes issues beyond The Elections Finances Act and The Elections Act?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): In fact, Madam Speaker, we have received just the opposite advice, that in fact the Order-in-Council, which would be passed to make the appointment, says specifically under No. 2 recommendation that nothing set out above shall be taken in any way as limiting the right of the commissioner to petition the Lieutenant Governor in Council to expand the terms of reference to cover any matter that the commissioner may deem necessary as a result of information coming to the commissioner's attention during the course of the inquiry.

I have said here and will repeat publicly anywhere that we would not deny any request to expand the inquiry in accordance with the commissioner's wishes.

Mr. Sale: Will the First Minister not recognize that the motion that he has put before the House limits the inquiry specifically to The Elections Act and The Elections Finances Act and to actions occurring during the period prior to and during the 1995 election, not after it? There are many things alleged to have occurred that occurred after and were not specifically related to The Elections Finances Act. Will he not recognize he has limited his--

Madam Speaker: Order, please. The question has been put.

Mr. Filmon: Section 83(1)(d) of The Manitoba Evidence Act, which the member opposite quoted from last week in urging us to make this appointment, says: "the election of a member to the Legislative Assembly or any alleged attempt to corrupt a candidate at any such election, or a member of the Legislative Assembly after his election, or the payment or contribution for campaign or other political purposes, or for the purpose of obtaining legislation or obtaining influence and support for franchises, charters, or any rights or privileges, from the Legislature or the Government of Manitoba by any person."

I mean, that covers everything that has been said by the member opposite, by the member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton), by all the various different allegations. It seems to me that the commissioner has indeed all the scope that he requires.

Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): To the Premier, Madam Speaker. I am sure the Premier understands that both he, as Premier, and his office are under a cloud as well in this whole matter, and indeed the Premier's Office is the highest office in the province. It is under a cloud because the chief of staff for the Premier is impugned, and he is the Premier's adviser, we understand, on tactics, and, second, that the Premier did an investigation allegedly into these matters.

Will the Premier not admit that it is important to the public of Manitoba that his office also be subject to the commission of inquiry, that it is important for people to know what the Premier knew, what he did not know, what he asked and what he did not ask of others?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, I am committed to co-operate in any way with the commissioner of inquiry, and I will make myself available to answer any and all questions regarding any and all allegations, insinuations, innuendo or whatever is brought forward with respect to this matter.

Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): Does the Premier not understand then that the resolution currently before the House restricts the investigation by the commissioner into matters that occurred during and prior to the election, not following the election and particularly not including matters of any alleged cover-up or lack of questioning since even as late as this week or last week? This is too strict.

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, if it is relevant, I have absolutely no doubt it will be canvassed because I know that the commissioner, retired Chief Judge Alfred Monnin, would not want to have members opposite making continuous allegations about either (a) his competence, (b) his scope or (c) his independence. He will not want those loose ends to be left at all, and so the members opposite can feel very, very confident in his commitment to get to the truth of the matter.

Mr. Mackintosh: Will the Premier not understand and admit that the former Chief Judge's mandate and scope of review is determined by this Legislature, not by he himself? It is determined not by an Order-in-Council but by a resolution that is currently before the House, a resolution, Madam Speaker, that is too restrictive.

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Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, far be it from me to try and explain to a former Deputy Clerk of this House and a lawyer that what we are doing is not passing the scope in this House. We are making the commitment, as the act requires, to the appointment of the commission. The appointment of the commission, its terms of reference and its scope are contained within the Order-in-Council.

I repeat: that Order-in-Council says under (2)--and that is in accordance with Section 83(2) of The Evidence Act--that nothing set out above shall be taken in any way as limiting the right of the commissioner to petition the Lieutenant Governor in Council to expand the terms of reference to cover any matter that the commissioner may deem necessary as a result of information coming to the commissioner's attention during the course of the inquiry.

As I have indicated to the member for Wolseley (Ms. Friesen), if any request comes, it will be granted. [interjection]

Madam Speaker: Order, please.

Mr. Filmon: Because we cannot anticipate everything. [interjection] We cannot anticipate--

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Madam Speaker: Order, please.

Mr. Stan Struthers (Dauphin): Madam Speaker, Manitobans take great pride in their right to exercise their votes. However, actions taken by this government during the 1995 general election effectively disenfranchised many of my constituents.

I want to ask the Premier if he does not think he owes it to my constituents to publicly investigate this whole election-rigging scandal.

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, I am reminded a little bit of trying to respond to Rumpelstiltskin who has just slept through the entire Question Period today.

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Madam Speaker: Order, please.

Mr. Filmon: I apologize. I correct the record. I meant Rip Van Winkle, not Rumpelstiltskin.

Madam Speaker, this is the purpose of the inquiry. This is why former Chief Justice Alfred Monnin is empowered to be able to make all those investigations, so that any concerns that the member opposite or his constituents have will be addressed by the inquiry.

Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, is it any surprise that the public is somewhat skeptical about the Premier's pronouncements today, when every single issue that we had to get out of this government, we had to drag out of them kicking and screaming, and it took an entire week of questioning, newspaper investigations, TV and radio investigations to get the Premier to come this far.

My question to the Premier today then is: is the Premier today guaranteeing--because it still takes O/C power to expand the scope of the investigation--in saying that there is no request he will deny from the Chief Judge? If that is the case, why not put that in the order that he is bringing before this House this afternoon?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, I have already made that commitment three times during Question Period. I will repeat it. Yes. We will not deny him any request in accordance with the statement that says: nothing set out above shall be taken in any way as limiting the right of the commissioner to petition the Lieutenant Governor in Council to expand the terms of reference to cover any matter--any matter--that the commissioner may deem necessary as a result of information coming to the commissioner's attention during the course of the inquiry, which flows, I might say, from Section 83(2) of The Evidence Act which says: "The Lieutenant Governor in Council may revoke, modify or enlarge the scope of any commission."

Madam Speaker: Order, please. Time for Oral Questions has expired.