Mr. Chairperson (Gerry McAlpine): Order, please. Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This afternoon this section of the Committee of Supply meeting in Room 254 will resume consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Education and Training.

When the committee last sat, it was considering item 16.1. Administration and Finance (c) Native Education Directorate (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits, on page 46 of the Estimates book. Shall the item pass?

Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Mr. Chairman, I think the minister was giving us a competitive review of Saskatchewan and Manitoba which kind of surprised me. I think the minister was actually mixing apples and oranges. The long-term historical economy of both Saskatchewan and Manitoba are quite different. Manitoba has always been more diversified than Saskat-chewan.

I think what the minister was actually talking about was the diversification of agriculture, a smaller portion of Manitoba's economy than it is of Saskatchewan's. The minister may well be right in the diversification in Manitoba, although I would certainly like to see the numbers on that. But I think the argument was actually mixing apples and oranges.

I was surprised, shall we say, at the competitive response on Saskatchewan. I had anticipated on behalf of all prairie governments that there would be some co-operation. As the minister had indicated, there was. I guess it depends upon the circumstance and depends upon the audience.

I wanted to ask about curriculum in native education.

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Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Education and Training): I am happy, Mr. Chairman, to go to this area, but there are some items left over, you know, leftover undertakings that I have made that I could discharge now before we go into the next topic if that is what the honourable member would like. I have things to table and things like that.

Mr. Chairperson: The honourable minister does not–

Mr. McCrae: You do not need to rule on it, I guess, though, Mr.Chairman.

Mr. Chairperson: A point of order has been raised. The honourable minister does not have a point of order, but the honourable minister would like to offer some tablings for the benefit of the committee.

Mr. McCrae: I would indeed like to do that. As discussed, I am tabling a School Achieve-ment Indicators Program report from the Council of Ministers of Education, Canada, respecting science. I also have, Mr. Chairman, a similar report respecting mathematics and a similar report respecting reading and writing.

I also want to clear up something that I said which may not have been 100 percent accurate. I would not want to mislead the honourable member in any way respecting The Apprentice-ship and Trades Qualifications Act. Under Section 15: the Lieutenant Governor in Council may make recommendations and orders prescribing the hours of labour, rates of wages and scale of increases of wages at fixed intervals for apprentices.

I think I said to the honourable member that there is no setting of rates, and that was not quite correct because there is a minimum. In the new act, The Apprenticeship and Trades Qualifications Act, Section 24, it says: subject to the approval of the minister the board may make regulations governing the objective standards and requirements for apprenticeship training, including the hours of work and rate of wages for apprentices.

Section 26.5 says: a regulation made under the former act that is enforced on the coming into force of this act continues in force as if made under this act until replaced, repealed or amended under the act.

All regulations made under Chapter A110 have a section that sets minimum wages for apprentices. The general regulation states that wages cannot be less than the provincial minimum wage, plus 10 percent in the first year and increased by 10 percent in each subsequent year.

Many trade regulations set wages at differing but greater amounts than that stated in the general regulation, either by setting the increments at a higher percent or using a method that establishes wages as a percent of the journeyman rate; for example, 45 percent of the journeyman rate. These regulations also provide for higher wages if agreed to by the employer or are set in a collective agreement.

Although The Apprenticeship and Trades Qualifications Act and regulations have authority to establish minimum rates of pay, the enforcement of payment of wages is, as I stated before, a mandate function of the Department of Labour, Employment Standards Branch. The Apprenticeship branch administers the payment of wages, components of trade regulations and pursues compliance to the regulation while the branch works in conjunction with Employment Standards regarding enforcement.

I also referred to documents setting out active and new apprentices year over year, and I am going to make that document available for the honourable member. We also talked about the origins of full-time international students in Manitoba, and I have information relating to the University of Manitoba, the University of Winnipeg, Brandon University and CollP ge universitaire de Saint-Boniface for 1997-98; same universities, same type of information for 1996-97; same again for 1995-96; same for 1994-95; same for 1993-94; same for 1992-93, and for 1991-92, and for 1990-91, and for 1989-90.

When we compare the surcharge placed on foreign students studying at Manitoba universities, we find that on average our rate is the third lowest in Canada. Thus from a competitive point of view, nationally our institutions' ability to attract foreign students is as good or better than in other provinces. It is important to attract foreign students to our campuses, but we have to balance that against the fact that we should not be asking the people of Manitoba to subsidize foreign students to the same extent as we do our own students. That is why we consider the surcharges being a reasonable thing to do. That is what I have to say about that.

Now, I am sorry, where were we? Is it in your court or my court?

Ms. Friesen: I had indicated an interest in discussing curriculum issues. There are two aspects of the curriculum issues, well, three actually, that I would like to look at.

One is the integration of aboriginal perspectives into curriculum generally across the board, and I am interested in what changes have been made in the past year in that area. Secondly, I am interested in the native languages framework that the Estimates book talks about, and I have a number of specific questions in that area; then, thirdly, the social studies curriculum.

So the first question, then, deals with the integration of aboriginal perspectives into the curriculum generally. I wonder what changes have been made this year and if the minister could point me to the documentation on this.

Mr. McCrae: While we are compiling information respecting that, I would refer also to the honourable member's comment about competitiveness between Manitoba and Saskat-chewan and then comment about co-operation.

Just because there is competition does not mean there is not co-operation. I think that I have had personal involvement in many instances of very positive co-operation between Manitoba and Saskatchewan. I signed an environment agreement with the environment minister for the Province of Saskatchewan and forged a personal friendship with that minister through many, many discussions and meetings extending over days and weeks.

I spent a lot of time with the Saskatchewan delegation respecting constitutional issues back in the time of the Meech Lake Accord and the Charlottetown Accord, and I was extended many courtesies by the Attorney General from Saskatchewan, the Premier of Saskatchewan, and our delegation, in turn, extended courtesies to them. All in all, we had a very positive working relationship, so I would not want any competitive talk on my part ever to be confused with not wanting to be totally co-operative with our provincial colleagues to the west or to the people of Saskatchewan, many of whom are my relatives. So I want the honourable member not to take from anything I said that I am being competitive in any way that is not positive.

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Yes, I will plead guilty nine times out of ten to wanting my province to be competitive and to achieve, because what that means is a better life for our children. That will happen working side by side with provinces like Saskatchewan with whom, I think, traditionally, no matter what the stripe of government in either province, there has been a long history of a good working relationship, and that is something I value and I think all Manitobans and the people of Saskatchewan, as well, would value very much.

So having said that, I hope that is clear enough. There are differences indeed, as the honourable member says. Even before the changes since the grain transportation subsidies, Saskatchewan was less diversified than Manitoba. I acknowledge that, but I do think that the pace of diversification is significantly greater in Manitoba than it is in Saskatchewan. I might even go so far as to say Alberta. There will be Albertans, no doubt, ready to get into that debate with me, including my brothers, who live in Alberta, but I think that they have got further to come than we do as well. So the honourable member is absolutely right about the fact that Manitoba has, for some time, been more diversified than these other provinces to the west. We have made much more significant progress than either of the two provinces I have named in recent years, which is something I am very proud of.

Now the honourable member asked about the aboriginal perspectives into the curriculum and changes in the past year. The questions are, of course, very important questions, and they are extremely appropriate to any discussion of education in Manitoba. But I have to remind the honourable member that the directorate itself is not a unit that is responsible for developing curricula. That responsibility, as the honourable member knows, resides in the Schools Programs Division or the Bureau de l'J ducation franH aise or, to the extent that curriculum is a division responsibility, in the divisions themselves.

Having said that, I can provide quite a bit of useful information respecting the questions raised by the honourable member. Details would be better handled when we get to item 16.2. I am not trying to make it hard for the people helping me from the department either, but I would say that the Schools Programs Division has undertaken a number of initiatives in support of the government's Aboriginal Education And Training Strategy.

The inclusion of aboriginal perspectives in the curricula and learning resources–this is the direct question asked–is under New Directions, A Foundation for Excellence. It specified that aboriginal perspectives will be integrated into all Manitoba curricula to ensure that all students have opportunities to understand and respect the history, cultural heritage and contemporary society of aboriginal peoples. As new curricula are developed, aboriginal perspectives are reflected either directly in specific learning outcomes or in the suggestions for instruction and assessment provided for teachers to use in curriculum implementation. Criteria for the selection of learning resources to support curriculum implementation also specified that learning resources identified for use in schools include content by and about aboriginal people. The curriculum development teams and learning resources review teams include aboriginal representation whenever possible.

An Aboriginal Perspectives Curriculum Steering Committee was established to provide advice on the integration of aboriginal perspectives into curriculum. This committee is being reconfigured and will function as part of the development team to prepare an aboriginal perspectives integration support document for use by curriculum developers in Manitoba Education and Training. It is similar to Tech-nology as a Foundation Skill Area–A Journey Toward Information Technology Literacy.

The Curriculum Framework for Aboriginal Languages is a joint project of the western provinces, Yukon and Northwest Territories, and Saskatchewan and Manitoba share the lead. Here is a case of the co-operation that I spoke of. We share the lead in this area with the province of Saskatchewan.

Regional vetting has included practicing teachers, language instructors, elders, aboriginal institutions and cultural specialists. Saskat-chewan and Manitoba as the leads and Alberta as administrator met in Regina on February 9 of this year to develop a proposal on procedure and costs for the final editing and production of the document for review by the aboriginal working group. Approximately $30,000 remains in the pooled funds for preparing a final version of the curriculum framework.

The current status is as follows: the first complete draft was reviewed by the aboriginal working group on March 17 of this year. The document is in the editorial process. Two editors, cultural linguistic and English, have been contracted. The concept of spirituality and its inclusion in the curriculum framework has been developed to positive satisfaction by all jurisdictions. In the future, Saskatchewan, Manitoba and Alberta plan to meet June 9 to 11 in Regina to develop a proposal on procedure and costs for final editing and production for review by the aboriginal working group and submission to the ADMs' forum. On completion of the editorial process, this draft will be vetted as appropriate by the provincial committee of aboriginal language teachers and elders.

With regard to social studies and the Western Canadian Protocol project, and the Manitoba curricula, original New Directions' date for implementation of new Manitoba social studies curriculum was June 1996. Time lines have been adjusted to accommodate develop-ment of a common curriculum frame-work under the Western Canadian Protocol Social Studies project. To better represent the diverse nature of Canada and create a more authentic social studies curriculum framework, the Western Canadian Protocol project team comprises ministry representatives who work in three subgroups: Anglophone Multiculture, Manitoba leads that one; Francophone, B.C. leads; and aboriginal, the Northwest Territories leads.

The Western Canadian Protocol Common Curriculum Framework for Social Studies, K to 12, will be released in English and in French. In 1998, the Western Canadian Protocol project team created a work plan with direction from the protocol assistant deputy ministers' steering committee. It was finalized for jurisdictional sign-off in January '99. Currently the project team's initial work has focused on preparing a foundation document. The purpose of this preframework document is to provide practical and philosophical direction to the developers of the Western Canadian Protocol Common Curriculum Framework for Social Studies.

Following completion in March 1999, Western Canadian Protocol ADMs approved the documents released for jurisdictional con-sultations April to November 1999. In Manitoba, the consultation process includes four facilitated sessions with educational stake-holders, two in Winnipeg, one in Brandon and one in The Pas; a system-wide mail-out of the foundation document and response form; and provision for on-line input using an electronic response form.

Manitoba's consultations are scheduled during May and June of 1999. They are a joint effort of School Programs Division, the Native Education Directorate, and Bureau de l'éducation française. So these three may also conduct separate sessions with particular groups of stakeholders to obtain their input. With respect to future direction, subsequent phases of the Western Canadian Protocol Social Studies project are based on the following time line. Phase l, K to 9 Learning Outcomes: December 2000, K to 9 Learning Outcomes completed; February 2001, French immersion adoption completed. Phase 2, 10 to 12 Learning Out-comes: May 2002, 10 to 12 Learning Outcomes and French immersion adaptation completed. Phase 3, Learning Resources Review: Alberta, Lead Expenditures over Four Budget Years: 2000-2001, 2001-2002, 2002-2003 and 2003-2004. So January 2001, K to 9 call; June 2002, K to 9 review; June 2002, 10 to 12 call; December 2003, 10 to 12 review.

Mr. Chairperson: Item 16.1.(c)(1).

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Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chairman, when the minister was dealing with the incorporation of native perspectives into curriculum generally, I think what he was reading was a statement of ideals and goals. I did not get a sense that anything had changed. I wanted to ask the minister in the past year if he could point me to the documents, to the areas of tests, to the outcomes where there has been some change and which had incorporated aboriginal perspectives. I am looking for some progress over the past year in that area.

Mr. McCrae: I think we have a small misunderstanding actually because there has been a significant amount of curriculum work which has built, into those curricula, the aboriginal perspective. That has to do with math and language arts. We are working through the Western Protocol with respect to aboriginal languages and social studies. So I guess it is the implication in the question that I was having a little trouble with, that is that not enough or nothing has been done, which is not correct because there has lots been done. Aboriginal involvement is part of the development of all of these things, and we have work in progress.

I guess I am a little troubled because on the one hand we are told, slow down on New Directions, and on the other hand we are told, speed up. If you ever tried slowing down and speeding up at the same time, you will find that that is a very, very hard thing to do. Now, maybe the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism (Mr. Tweed) is one of those few people who is able to do that, but slowing down and speeding up at the same time is really hard. But I say, in addition to what I previously said, the Western Canadian Protocol has an aboriginal dimension to it. We are going to have a Manitoba-wide curriculum that is going to be culturally sensitive to the aboriginal reality of Manitoba's history.

Ms. Friesen: I am asking for specifics, and I have asked now twice for specifics. I have suggested curriculum, outcomes, examinations as examples of specifics where aboriginal perspectives may or may not have been incorporated. The minister's answer basically says, yes, we are doing it. Well, what exactly is it that the department has been able to do in the past year, and I make no assumptions about progress or lack of progress, but what has been accomplished? Can the minister point me to particular curricula, particular resource documents, particular examinations, particular lists of outcomes that have changed in the past year, that indicate an incorporation of aboriginal perspectives by Manitoba teachers in the classroom?

Mr. McCrae: With respect to math and language arts, no, because those curricula and the supporting materials and professional development is either done or well underway. As I say, we have integrated aboriginal perspectives in those curricula in all schools, and we are now developing phys ed and health, and it too will have aboriginal perspectives integrated. That, I would expect, would include whatever supporting documents or teaching aids and whatever that would include in all of those efforts.

Now we are working with the western counterparts on, as I said, aboriginal languages and social studies. These will obviously, more important than ever, address aboriginal perspectives. It takes somebody better at it than me to design a math curriculum, for example, that has an aboriginal perspective. I would not know where to start. That is why I have to consult people who do know how to do these things, and that is why we are fortunate to have input as we go through the process. I think there is a sense that New Directions is all done and over and done with, and that is far from the case. There is lots more to do. We have, in response to concerns expressed, slowed down implementation of curriculum change and tried to be responsive to concerns raised, certainly by members of the teaching profession who are at the forefront of making sure that our children receive the benefit of the new curricula, including in this year's budget, which the honourable member so graciously supported, adding $900,000 to professional development, all with an effort to assist in getting our New Directions implemented in an orderly way.

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As we develop our tests, these too pay attention to aboriginal perspectives, especially in the reading and the writing portions. The Special Education Review, which we talked about the other day, also has aboriginal perspectives, and it is pretty obvious that that is exactly what is needed. So our response to the Special Education Review will include aboriginal perspectives.

It is as if somehow aboriginal people and issues are hived off somewhere and they are not part of our society. To a very large extent, aboriginal Manitobans are integrated into our society. They live in the same communities as I do and as the honourable member does, so we need to have a curriculum that is there for everybody but that is sensitive to the history and the culture of all of us. That is not an easy task, but we have some pretty dedicated people around who are giving that their very best effort and, of course, we are producing students of a high calibre who are going to be able to compete in this world. If anybody thinks that we can get through our lives without having to face competition, they are living in some kind of paradise I have never known or been aware of. Competition is the way the world works. It may be a good thing or not such a good thing, but it is the thing, and I think for the most part we find that it is a pretty positive thing. If we understand aboriginal perspectives, we are going to be more competitive than ever before, and I think that we are working properly in the direction. I have given the honourable member I think the kind of detail that she has been looking for.

Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chairman, well, I did not actually hear any reference to specific new curricula. What the minister essentially said was that the math and English language arts incorporation had been done and that the department is at the moment working on the physical education and health, and that the social studies is essentially in its organizational stages, rather than in its preparation stages for curriculum resources. The physical education and health one then is the one that is in process in terms of the preparation of resources and of the actual writing of the curriculum, and I think that has been the case for some time. I think that curriculum is being written for at least 18 months. So I understand the answer on that one.

I wanted to ask about the aboriginal language framework that is being done in co-operation with other jurisdictions and to ask about the impact on Manitoba. How many students in Manitoba are currently taking courses in aboriginal languages and/or taking challenge exams in aboriginal languages, and in respect to challenge exams, does the minister have, obviously not with him, some sense of the record of challenge exams in aboriginal languages over the last five or six years?

Mr. McCrae: I regret if the honourable member feels that I have not answered the question. It is just that I have several times pointed out that what is new is basically the question, and I am saying what is new is native languages, social studies, health and phys ed, and that is what is new.

Ms. Friesen: That is what I summarized.

Mr. McCrae: Right.

Ms. Friesen: The first two are frameworks. They are not at the stage of developing resources.

Mr. McCrae: I am not denying what the honourable member is saying. I am saying that we are making considerable progress and so much progress that we are being asked to slow down, and that is what we have done in a few occasions to try to make New Directions something that is more acceptable to everyone. By doing it too fast, I think we have put pressure on the system that does not need to be there and so we have also reduced that pressure in certain ways, in several ways.

So the next part of the question has to do with aboriginal languages, the number of students taking them and the number of students taking challenge exams, and that is information we will get for the honourable member.

Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chairman, the social studies framework is certainly an area the government has slowed down. Obviously, from the per-spective of opposition, one of the reasons for this is the hiatus of–it must have been at least three years where the government was in a position of arguing that it was not going to have a mandatory senior level, Canadian History.

Now I notice that every other province in the western consortium has a relatively new curriculum. Manitoba is the only one that has a social studies curriculum that is quite dated, and I wonder what the prospect is for Manitoba in this context. We can do it in a comparison basis. We have British Columbia with a curriculum that is, I think, only three years old; Saskat-chewan with one that is about two years old; Alberta's is a little older; but Manitoba has nothing since 1983 in changes in its senior level history curriculum, and that is quite a distance.

I am wondering how the minister is going to approach this. Yes, wait for the Western Protocol and the frameworks, but in the meantime what kind of material, what kind of text, what kind of resources, what kind of contemporary solutions is the minister offering to Manitoba schools?

Mr. McCrae: Mr. Chairman, I do not think that history teachers in Manitoba would appreciate very much the implication that they are teaching children only the information that is contained in a curriculum that dates back to 1983. I do not know a lot about history, but I think the honourable member sometimes knows less about history than I do, which is saying something. I say that because it is really quite insulting to history teachers to suggest that they are relying on a 1983 textbook. I mean, they are not stupid, our history teachers. In fact, they are anything but stupid. They know how to use resources. They know how to read the newspapers and make their students aware, put some perspective forward about history.

So I am not saying that we are not going to need new curriculum and that we are not going to need new textbooks, but I think the honourable member makes a lot out of this and, in doing so, does so as a real slap to our history teachers, because our history teachers are very, very mindful of what is going on today and yesterday and last week and last year and in all the years since 1983, having experienced those years firsthand as living human beings. I mean, you cannot really have a relevant review of history without some reference to what is going on today and how did we get here. I am no history scholar, but I would caution, certainly myself if nobody else, not to offend history teachers by telling them that they cannot do a good job, because I think they can do an excellent job.

The province of Manitoba is, as we have discussed, developing social studies curricula in step with the Western Protocol. As the member says, the other western provinces have new social studies curricula. They too see that it is needing to change or to improve since they are going to be continuing to work with us. So, you know, there are all kinds of ways you can put this. I mean, I do not want to be seen defending a delay that has no sense to it, but I do know that there are a lot of teachers out there who are saying: we like your curricula a lot, we think it is great, but would you please give us the resources that we need in order to get the job done.

That is exactly what we are trying to respond to and are responding to. The other thing is, it is a lot of work, and it is coming at us pretty fast. That is an appropriate concern if it is true, which it is. That is worth our taking account of and adjusting accordingly.

So we are very mindful of wanting to be good stewards not only of the public's resources, but also we want to be responsive and sensitive to the needs of our teachers, who are doing so much these days to make the education in history or in any subject matter relevant to the requirements of today and the future.

We are not going to do what they did in B.C. I understand that they rather unceremoniously rammed through new curriculum in social studies. They are also working with us in the Western Protocol. Soon you know what is going to be happening in B.C. Maybe this is what the honourable member wants to happen here. But it will not be long before the teachers there are going to be saying, well, which curriculum do you want us to teach now? I mean, first you do not change them at all, and then you change them too fast. So I think that what I am seeing is an appropriate effort on the part of the province of Manitoba to partner with our western Canadian partners in developing a curriculum in social studies.

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Lastly, while it is true that we have not established new social studies curricula yet, we have not established it, but we have put out regular updates to assist teachers, we are embarking right now to do some updates to our existing social studies curricula as we transition to the Western Protocol curriculum.

The question totally ignores the very existence of the Internet, which is available now for history teachers and other teachers. Having visited in a number of schools recently, I get a real sense of the enthusiasm that teachers are beginning to show. I think having gotten through the adjustments to new curricula, which I acknowledge has been a real difficult task for the teachers, they are feeling pretty optimistic and they are very enthusiastic in their working relationships with their students.

So I think that we are making progress which is steady, as promised, and we are also–well, it is not bullshit. It is not bullshit, with all due respect, Mr. Chairman. We are, as the honourable member for Wolseley says, what we are doing is we promised progress–

Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. I would have to ask the minister to withdraw the word. It is unparliamentary.

Mr. McCrae: Pardon me, Mr. Chairman. I withdraw it. I was simply repeating what I heard the member for Wolseley say.

Mr. Chairperson: I thank the honourable minister for that. The honourable minister, to continue.

Mr. McCrae: I am sorry if I offended anybody. I did not mean to do that. It is just that our teachers have their hands full now, and they are telling us, even through the honourable member, that their hands are full and that we are trying to do all of this work, and then the criticism comes on the other side that you are not moving fast enough. That is why I made the comment that only maybe the member for Turtle Mountain (Mr. Tweed) can slow down and speed up at the same time. I mean, which is it? I think that we have to set a pace that is indeed reasonable and achievable by human beings in attempting to do a good job. I think that is what we are doing.

Ms. Friesen: Well, the implications about the teachers in the classroom are entirely ones that the minister is drawing. My questions dealt with the comparability of curriculum changes across the country, particularly the Western Protocol, and an indication that other parts of the Western Protocol have moved independently and more quickly and sometime during the same period as this government. It is certainly true that there are many resources on the Internet. It is certainly true that the teachers are crying out for more resources, and I am very pleased to see that the minister in this particular time has moved, is it in the last two months or in the last four months, to develop some new resources for teachers of social studies? I think that is very useful. I think what I would like to ask the minister to do is to table the papers that he referred to earlier. I am not sure if he called it a framework document. It is certainly moving towards a framework document that is going to be discussed in Winnipeg and Brandon and if he could table that and perhaps give us an indication of what he expects in terms of new resources in the coming year in terms of social studies.

Mr. McCrae: I might add other western provinces that are moving ahead quickly are getting into a fair bit of trouble for it, too, as I made reference to British Columbia. I was reading in the Western Report a story about Alberta and the debate going on there about maths and a number of the things had a strangely familiar ring to some of the debate in Manitoba and probably elsewhere. But I say be careful what you compare yourself to, I guess, because you want to hold up British Columbia as an example, let us talk about all of the examples that are flowing from B.C. these days and, you know, you tend to get into a rather unpleasant subject matter these days. I have a lot of relatives in B.C. too, and I tell you I do not hear anything good about the government down there.

An Honourable Member: Have you ever driven out there?

Mr. McCrae: Oh, yeah.

Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. The honourable member for Wolseley, did you have a question?

Ms. Friesen: No, Mr. Chairman, I merely had a comment that it is the minister who keeps raising British Columbia. I am asking for comparability across the western provinces and indicating that there is a problem here. There is a problem in timing, and one of the problems is that each of the western provinces, that is, Saskatchewan, Alberta, and British Columbia, have moved at a different pace in their social studies curriculum. I should refrain, I think, from expecting a logical response. I wonder if the minister could per-haps indicate whether he is going to table the material that is being distributed in Manitoba.

Mr. McCrae: We are indeed talking about comparability and that is exactly what I have been explaining. It is true that we are trying to get some sense of something standard across the West and that is what all the provinces are working for, and I guess the only point I am making is that those that get ahead of the pack have to backtrack too and get themselves into quite a bit of trouble. That is the only point I was making. I have answered the questions.

The honourable member asked about the consultation process, I think, with stakeholders, the facilitated sessions, Winnipeg, two of them, one of them in Brandon, one in The Pas, and I will get that for the honourable member. I am advised the other provinces are not ahead of us in developing our new social studies curricula. In each jurisdiction they have consultation processes underway, so there is really quite a lot of comparability, not only of content but also of process.

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Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chairman, I think again we are discussing apples and oranges, the issue of existing relatively new curriculum in other areas and the process for a western framework consultation are two separate things. The minister's response seems to mix the two of them.

I wanted to ask in this section of the department about relationships and connections and partnership, discussions with, meetings with parents of aboriginal students. I wondered what had taken place in the past year in this area.

Mr. McCrae: I can only speak for the last three months for myself at least, and I have taken a direct role in that. Maybe there have been developments before that as well, but certainly in the first month or so, month and a half of my tenure as minister, I invited Manitobans from all parent councils across the province to join with us. That opportunity was made available, but again we did not make records of how many of the parents that came were aboriginal parents. For my part, that opportunity was there for me and it was there for parents to join us in discussions. I understand there have been aboriginal family and community workshops–I am sorry, there will be an aboriginal and community workshop being planned. That is being planned now to provide information to aboriginal parents, families, and communities about the education of students in Manitoba.

The primary target audience is aboriginal parents, families, and communities, but the workshop is open to the general public. It has the following goals: consulting with people; providing information on New Directions initiatives; working with regional teams to build local capacity; and to provide an update on initiatives related to aboriginal education in Manitoba Education and Training.

There are two workshops planned, a rural one, so-called, they call it rural because it is not in Winnipeg, but it is in Brandon, another major urban centre–actually it is becoming the major urban centre in Manitoba–at Crocus Plains Regional High School. The tentative date for that is October 9, '99. Then they are going to have an urban workshop in that other city, Winnipeg, at R.B. Russell School. It is that competitive thing coming out of me again I guess. The tentative date for that is October 16. Neighbouring First Nations communities will be invited to attend the workshops. In addition, the Native Awareness consultant has already performed 56 workshops for administrators, teachers, and students in 34 schools province-wide.

Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chairman, last time we had Estimates the minister suggested, when I asked about graduation rates for aboriginal people, the minister I think quoted me 7.6 percent of the overall population as a Manitoba number, I think. I was checking that with her to make sure it was Manitoba, not a Canada-wide number. I wonder if the minister has any new information since 1996 to give us any indication whether that number has changed.

Mr. McCrae: The number the honourable member gave us, I have no reason to question except to say, as we discussed earlier, it may be difficult to be precise about that because of the difficulties we mentioned earlier. No, I do not know if there has been any improvement or change in that in recent times, but that number alone reflects the nature of the issue we have in front of us. I do not think anybody disagrees that education is something that we all need and that aboriginal communities need education too in order to make better their social and economic circumstances.

I spoke of my frustration last time we talked about these things. This is still just another statistic that if you do not put some human dimension around it, you are really no better than a number cruncher. We need to be doing more than crunching numbers. I challenge governments, aboriginal governments, the federal government, and provincial govern-ments, I challenge everybody to put aside all of the politics and think about the implications of that particular statistic.

The first one I ever hear from the honourable member for The Pas (Mr. Lathlin) or somebody like that is, oh, unemployment is so high. Well, guess why. A 7.6 percent graduation rate may have something to do with it. I talk about the development of Manitoba overall and I gave credit for that development to our education system and to the fact that Manitobans achieve education. But we know that not all Manitobans are achieving levels of education that would generate a better life for themselves and their families.

So I challenge everybody. The province is trying with the resources that it has and the best and the brightest minds around to make a difference in that area, but as long as we maintain the system that we have, which has plagued aboriginal people for 150 or more years, as long as we have that kind of system, we are going to continue to have this kind of statistic to debate in Estimates on a Thursday afternoon in the Manitoba Legislature. It is just simply unacceptable and should be more unacceptable than it is to aboriginal governments. Aboriginal governments need to partner with Ottawa and with Manitoba and in Saskatchewan, with the provincial government there, and Alberta. We are simply not getting enough partnership.

We simply have plenty of committees and task forces and work groups and all of these different ways of trying to get at the issues that are facing Canadians and Manitobans. Well, I guess I am impatient. I plead guilty on that one. I have been watching too closely for too long I guess. I have seen some progress, but I have not seen enough. As long as you have a partnership that is dysfunctional, we are going to have results that are not going to be acceptable. I say dysfunctional, because we are always having skirmishes about jurisdiction. Well, I regret that. I have worked very hard to try to break down those jurisdictional barriers and get some real work done, but unfortunately we do not always achieve the success that we want.

The 1996 census data indicates that the aboriginal population of Manitoba is the youngest and fastest-growing population in Manitoba, with the most significant growth occurring among those under 15 years, 20 percent of the total population, and 15 to 24 years which is 16 percent of the total population. The latest data indicates that 61.9 percent of aboriginal peoples over the age of 15 have not completed high school, compared to 39.2 percent of the nonaboriginal population. A smaller proportion of aboriginal youth between the ages of 15 and 24 are in school, 44 percent of aboriginal youth compared to 59 percent nonaboriginal.

Participation rate in the labour force is lower for aboriginal Manitobans, 54 percent compared to 67.6 percent for nonaboriginals. The unemployment rate is much higher, 6.4 percent for nonaboriginal, at the time this was written, compared to 25.5 percent for aboriginal people. The trend to urbanization by aboriginal peoples is continuing while employment opportunities continue to be low for this highly undertrained population. This is putting additional strain on city and provincial social service delivery systems.

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Well, those facts and figures tell of the urgency of the problem. This is past politics. It has been past politics for a number of years. We still get demonstrations and things, but it is past politics. It is time for people to get serious and stop playing games and get on with doing the right thing for ordinary aboriginal people in Manitoba. When I say ordinary aboriginal people, they are the ones that get lost in the shuffle of debate over who is responsible for what and who has jurisdiction over what, and who has the power.

That is really a troublesome thing, this power business. The people do not care about the power. They want a little for themselves as ordinary human beings, and they are not getting enough power. That is a regrettable thing.

Ms. Friesen: I think the minister had some numbers which were more specific than the ones which we had in Estimates last year. I think, actually as I read through what was said last year, I do not think we ever actually got clarification. What we were working with was a number, a Canadian number, from 1996 which indicated 7.6 percent of aboriginal people over the age of 15 have completed high school, up slightly from the 1991 census where it was 7.4 percent.

Now, the minister has some different numbers which break it down by age groups, which is obviously important in all, whether you are looking at aboriginal or nonaboriginal people, when you are looking for changes in graduation rates or the same problem is their literacy rates, as well.

Does he have new numbers from anything later than 1996? Are we still operating on the basis of the '96 census?

Mr. McCrae: Unfortunately, the 1996 statistics are the latest ones that we have available. We get this demographic information from Statistics Canada. That is our source and that has not been updated since that time.

Ms. Friesen: What is the source for Statistics Canada's material? Is it the census or is it specific educational statistics that are submitted by Manitoba?

Mr. McCrae: It is the 1996 census data that I was relying on. I might just add that as part of the whole Council of Ministers of Education, Canada, there is an education statistics committee of which the deputy minister for Manitoba is a co-chair. Mr. Carlyle tells me that this council is trying to achieve better statistical data, especially data respecting aboriginal Canadians.

Mr. Chairperson: 16.1.Administration and Finance (c) Native Education Directorate (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $358,900–pass; (2) Other Expenditures $108,800–pass.

16.1.(d) Human Resources Services (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $611,200–pass; (2) Other Expenditures $113,200–pass.

16.1.(e) Corporate and Administrative Services (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1,214,600–pass; (2) Other Expenditures $456,300–pass.

16.1.(f) Management Information Services (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $700,200–pass; (2) Other Expenditures $254,500–pass.

16.2. School Programs (a) Division Administration (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $278,700.

Ms. Friesen: I wonder if the minister could give us a brief summary here. The management team is addressing priority issues. I am interested to have the minister tell us what the priority issues are for the department that these project teams are working on.

Mr. McCrae: If the honourable member could just run through the question one more time so we can prepare ourselves.

Ms. Friesen: I am working on 16.2.(a), the activities of the Division Administration, which talks about priority issues and teams to address priority issues. I am interested in knowing what the priority issues are.

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Mr. McCrae: Whatever the line in the Estimates, I have always had a little difficulty figuring out which line was which, but I think the honourable member is asking us about addressing priority issues. I guess we need to talk about what those priority issues are. I think that is something that has been talked about a lot but certainly bears repeating. The priority function of the Department of Education these days is to bring our education system into conformity with a system that has standards and sets standards. It is a big job. We are doing that in a way which brings in our partners from across Canada, but certainly in a more direct way across western Canada, making sure we are administering our New Directions policies appropriately, making adjustments when it is determined that in some areas we are moving too slowly or too fast and making those sorts of adjustments. Special needs, of course, when it comes to implementation, will be a serious, serious priority item in terms of implementation. So we are talking about technology, as well, which is an important part of our preparations for preparing children for a future that will be in a whole different world than the one that they started out in, and we keep trying to build relationships and maintain partnerships.

We have talked about aboriginal issues in Manitoba and the importance of those issues. We have talked about special needs as well. I always hate giving out a list in case I miss out an important priority speaking off the cuff, but I believe those are pretty central. I know that when I came into office, I was and remain interested in developing a new relationship with the Manitoba Teachers' Society, and I have begun that process.

One of the first things that I did was to accept an invitation by the Teachers' Society to attend at one of their meetings. I think it was a regional meeting. There were sure a lot of executive members of the MTS there. We had I think a very meaningful initial discussion. We had a number of contacts with various members of the MTS since, including the new president. I have known the new president or the president-elect, I guess it is, I have known that person, Jan Speelman, for the majority of my life, and I look forward to a positive working relationship. I mean that very sincerely. I look forward to actually getting some things done that would be meaningful for teachers and meaningful for the people of Manitoba and result in better education for the children.

Those are priorities, too. They may not be set out in any document, but, for me, in order to get anything done you need good partnership. I met with the Manitoba Association of School Trustees very early on. The member knows that I have been meeting with parents and others as well. I think, aside altogether from the Estimates to talk about, establishing relation-ships and building partnerships is very important. The reason we have come as far as we have in new directions is that we have indeed established partnerships and established working committees and steering committees and oversight committees so that we can work in partnership.

I have had cordial contacts with the people in the education system. The present president of the Manitoba Teachers' Society and I, even though we have not had 100 percent agreement, I think both of us have maintained our sense of humour which is an important thing to do in a relationship that is sometimes seen as somewhat adversarial.

We have discussed a number of the priorities that the department has relating to aboriginal education issues. We have talked about various liaisons. We have to work well with school divisions to ensure that they are enabled to do their work. It is important from one budget year to the next, and everything seems to be dependent on budgets, that is a reality, but given that matter which kind of governs us all, I think we have had some pretty good and meaningful discussions. I have learned from them. I have brought those insights back to the department, and I think we have seen some progress in a very short time.

I measure it by various things. I know we have to use indicators and measure how many kids are graduating and all of those things, and you cannot do that in the space of three or four months, but in that period of time I think I have succeeded in making significant headway in developing some relationships with people in the field that are going to be very important. My experience in previous portfolios suggests that some of the contacts you make early on in a new job are the ones that you can call up later on, too. I have proved that in the past. So I was glad early on to be able to touch bases with some of the leadership of some of these important organizations such as, again, the school superintendents associations and the regional ones, as well.

Lots of networking should be job one for a new minister and leave the operations to the people who do it best, and that is the people in the department. We are very fortunate in Manitoba to have an Education department that is sensitive to the needs of their fellow Manitobans. I have enjoyed working with them and I trust that I will be doing that for quite some time, although it is the Premier (Mr. Filmon) who makes that decision. I just put that little hint forward right now, that I like this department. I like working with the people involved in Education.

Just last night I was in Tyndall, Manitoba, to let the people there know that their communities of Garson and Tyndall will have their old schools replaced and a new school for both of them built. It was a very happy occasion. It is one of the times when you really stop and think about how lucky you are to be in a job like this. I was able to remind the people at the meeting, many of whom were parents and trustees and people like that, but there were, as it turned out, some teachers there too, I did ask the community to bear in mind that what we are doing was building a building and it is what goes on inside that building that is really going to count.

One fellow taught in that very school that we are going to be replacing for 28 years of his life. So there was some emotion at that meeting last night in Tyndall, a very moving occasion for myself and for the honourable Minister of Highways and Transportation (Mr. Praznik) in that this is a town that wants to thrive and wants to have a quality of life in both these towns, Tyndall and Garson. I think the announcement made will help ensure that that happens and that those are communities that will be there for a long time to come. It is because of the people who live there who have done so much to make it a quality place to live. They obviously care a lot about their children. So there was a fair bit of interest generated.

That is not a very good description if you are looking for a point form answer in terms of the priorities of the department. I am just telling you what my priorities are. I hope that the honourable member shares those priorities. I think she does.

Ms. Friesen: I wanted to ask the minister about desktop services. The issue of increasing costs for desktop services I think occurs in a number of areas of the department's Estimates. So although I am asking on this particular line where the increase is from 10.9 to 14.6, it is actually one of the smaller increases. I wonder if the minister could give me a sense of what the cost is for the whole department.

This, I assume, is part of a multiyear program of costing the transition to a new type of contract. We talked about it in a number of Estimates last year, so I wonder if the minister could summarize for us what the impact is on the department this year and how many more years this impact will be there in terms of increases in desktop services.

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Mr. McCrae: Mr. Chairman, here is what I propose: I would be happy to provide this information if at the beginning of our next sitting we could do that. I could have the appropriate person here and give you the detail that you are looking for.

Mr. Chairperson: 16.2. School Programs (a) Division Administration (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $278,700–pass; (2) Other Expenditures $77,900–pass.

2.(b) Manitoba School for the Deaf (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $2,876,400.

Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chair, I just wanted to note that my colleague the member for Dauphin (Mr. Struthers) had asked some questions already that had reference to this, I think, earlier. I was not here for everything he asked. I just wanted to ask about enrollments and if there had been any change in enrollments at the School for the Deaf.

Mr. McCrae: The honourable member for Dauphin indeed did ask one or two very insightful and important questions, but the honourable member for Wolseley arrived fairly soon thereafter so he did not get into very many questions about the School for the Deaf.

The numbers have not changed much year over year. This gives just simply the number as at September 30, 1998. The number of students enrolled at the Manitoba School for the Deaf at that time was 89. Off campus at John Taylor Collegiate there were four. Residential students numbered 12. With regard to staff there were 13 deaf staff, educational including administration; 28.75 staff years of hard of hearing staff and one vacant seat; with respect to support people, like residence, janitorial, office people, seven deaf and four hard of hearing, for a total of 20 deaf, 32.75 staff years hard of hearing, and one vacant.

In 1999 we expect possibly 11 graduates. This is the point that was being raised by the member for Dauphin (Mr. Struthers). He was asking about the Professional/Technical item on page 47, second number item from the top, from 49.85 to 50.85. That reflects two new students coming in who are exceedingly needy children and we need additional professional and technical support for that reason. That was what the honourable member for Dauphin was asking about.

Ms. Friesen: I am interested in the kind of support that is being offered in rural areas to those students who are part of a regular school system and again going back to the special needs review and to the recommendation for the training of teacher assistants. The department obviously provides some services in that area and from what I have heard, at least in some areas it is not enough. There are waiting lists. There are people who feel they are dealing with deaf students who they do not feel competent to do so. I wondered if the department had prepared a report on that. Has it summarized any of the needs that it sees in northern areas as well as rural areas? Has there been any reflection on that, on policy changes or needs, waiting lists, that kind of thing?

Mr. McCrae: An educational interpreter consultant position has been filled by several part-time deaf and hearing staff who travel to schools throughout Manitoba. The educational interpreter consultant assists school staff to improve their ASL skills when instructing deaf and hard-of-hearing children. Sorry, I am stumbling over my words a little bit. Too much talking in one day.

Ms. Friesen: Could the minister tell us how many students are deaf and hard of hearing in Manitoba and how many students are being assisted by this part of the department, by this kind of program?

Mr. McCrae: If that is not immediately available but yet is available, I will make it available for the honourable member at the earliest opportunity.

Mr. Chairperson: Item 16.2.(b) Manitoba School for the Deaf (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $2,876,400–pass.

Mr. McCrae: On a point of order, just because we passed the item does not mean that we will not make the information available.

Mr. Chairperson: I thank the honourable minister for that.

Mr. Chairperson: Item 16.2.(b)(2) Other Expenditures $641,000–pass.

16.2.(c) Assessment and Evaluation (1) Salaries and Employment Benefits $5,149,700.

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Ms. MaryAnn Mihychuk (St. James): I would like to ask a few questions in the area of Assessment and Evaluation. One, just looking at the number of staff, is that we have seen a considerable growth in the number of people in this section, nine at the professional level and four at the administrative level. That makes it a total of 74.5 positions. Can the minister tell us if we expect to see continued growth of the number of staff in this branch?

Mr. McCrae: There is a critical mass of activity and cost respecting the implementation and ongoing administration of an assessment system in our schools, so, yes, there will be a cost. As we add other curricula to be tested against, we expect to see some growth in this area. However, I do not think it will be as significant as the initial growth because of the critical mass part that I mentioned. So, yes, there will be some growth in that, but I do not think as much as we have seen thus far.

The first part of it is going to be the largest part, I suggest, and the investment is something that does get debated from time to time, as some people say, as one group, I think, is putting out information about tests, saying: well, save the $15 million, as if to say–well, actually, they are against the tests, so they use that as a reason for putting their case forward. I simply think that less than 1 percent of the total budget to be spent in this way is appropriate when we are spending $781 million for our school system. It might be worth less than 1 percent of all of that to identify whether we are getting our money's worth. That is basically what it comes down to. But, yes, to answer the honourable member's question, we do expect to see a bit more growth in that area, but probably not as much as we have seen to this point.

Ms. Mihychuk: Can the minister be more specific and indicate how many more positions will be hired in the upcoming year?

Mr. McCrae: It is an increase of 13 staff years.

Ms. Mihychuk: Can the minister inform us, given that they have a plan of testing, what they would expect in the year 2000-2001?

Mr. McCrae: I expect to be able to answer that question before we are finished at 5.

Ms. Mihychuk: Can the minister indicate, I guess maybe review, the overall testing program? Some of the standards tests have changed a bit. It was going to be in a number of courses at the four levels, and some of those, if I remember correctly, have now been dropped. Can the minister indicate which courses are going to be tested in the four grades? Let us start that way so that is for the record and people can have a handle of what the plan is for standards tests in Grades 3, 6, Senior 1 and Senior 4.

Mr. McCrae: I think the honourable minister knows this, but for Grades 3 and 6, it goes like this. It is already out there, as I understand. It has been made known, but I will tell her anyway. In 1999, in June, Grade 3 English language arts and immersion française, also Grade 3 mathematics, also Grade 6 English language arts and immersion anglaise in 2000, Grade 3 Added to the above in 2000 in the month of June would be Grade 6 franH ais immersion and Grade 6 mathematics. I think that is correct. In 2001, same as '99. In 2002, same as 2000 with the addition of Grade 6 science. From that point on, science in Grade 6 will be tested in alternate years. So 2003, same as 1999 with the addition of–maybe there is a better way of putting this, and if so, I think we should use it, because I saw the honourable member scribbling away and I do not think it is going to do any good to use that. Not your fault, but mine.

I think we will just take the time to put it into an understandable format. Maybe the one I had been looking at is understandable, but when you put it into English like I have been trying to do, it does not come out so good. So maybe we can build something like that and share it with the honourable member, or if it is already out there, find that material and make it available to the honourable member. That might be the best way, and we can do that tomorrow. Is that okay? So we will table that information tomorrow.

Ms. Mihychuk: It is my understanding that some of these exams will be marked locally by school divisions. Can the minister indicate which of these exams are now going to be the responsibility of school divisions?

Mr. McCrae: Some that are going to be marked centrally–so here we go: Senior 4 mathematics marked centrally; English language arts, marked centrally, Senior 4, that is Grade 12 to me; Grade 3 mathematics standards test will be marked centrally; Grade 3 language arts standards test will be marked centrally.

Standards tests will be marked locally for English language arts, English LA immersion, anglais, franH ais, franH ais immersion at Grade 6 and Senior 1; mathJ matiques at Grade 6 and Senior 1; social studies, sciences humaines at Grade 6; and science, science de la nature at Senior 1.

Ms. Mihychuk: As the minister probably knows, doing marking at the local level or centrally requires training and time and certain expenses to do the marking. Has the province provided additional supports to school divisions to cover the expenses incurred by local marking?

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Mr. McCrae: Mr. Chairman, $9 a test, and there is an evaluation system set up and it is good so far, but the evaluation is ongoing. Teachers like it. I know the Teachers' Society has made some comments about it, but teachers like it. We are deriving a professional development, and now watch what happens. Somebody who does not like it is going to come forward and say so. But the fact is, the experience that I have had, what I have been hearing, is that they see this as a professional development tool that assists them in their work as teachers. But there is never any black or white. I know there are always gray areas.

We are deriving a professional development benefit from the standards testing initiative as teachers reference their participation on test development committees and marking teams as one of the best professional development experiences of their careers. So that is an interesting comment. It is more than just interesting. I am not very surprised, and I am quite new at all this, but I am not very surprised because what I have learned about these tests is that they have very significant teacher input, in-the-field teachers who are involved in the writing and designing of these tests. So overall one tends to wonder sometimes what this is all about, but there are legitimate arguments on both sides. There always are. But the fact is that I think that anybody who is involved in this marking experience comes back saying that they are far better equipped to teach this type of curriculum having been engaged in that type of activity. There is $9 per test.

Ms. Mihychuk: Will the minister indicate which budget line includes that allocation and what the total amount is?

Mr. McCrae: While they are looking for that, Mr. Chairman, I will just point out to the honourable member that local marking training sessions were held for this year at the end of April, so we are not just throwing people to the wolves here. I know that it has been difficult for lots of people to get into this, but I think we are starting to be able to find some better levels of satisfaction with people involved in the process. Anything new is sometimes a little tricky to adjust to.

We have just about got your answer here. I know it is $280,000. It is in 16.2.(c) under Pro-fessional Fees. In the appropriation, $2,104,800, you find the $280,000 in that amount somewhere.

Ms. Mihychuk: There are a couple of concerns that parents have expressed, and one of them is that having their homeroom teacher be pulled out to do marking means that our own children then do not have their homeroom teacher, which is always viewed as a disadvantage because there is a special relationship between the children and the teacher. We have seen over and over again that type of support from parents to have one teacher in the classroom. When they are pulled out for administrative work, the students have perhaps a less rewarding day when their homeroom teacher or their regular teacher is pulled out.

Is the minister concerned about this, and how do we respond to all those parents who are concerned about the number of days that their teachers are out of the classroom?

Mr. McCrae: I guess the first thing that the honourable member's question begs is that, if this were the main issue, is the remedy to get rid of testing? You have to weigh all of these things, and I have been doing that. This is for the marking, right? And the teacher is out marking and there is a substitute paid for by the department and the issues that arise from that as enunciated by the honourable member. So you say to that: well, now, okay, the teacher is not there, there is a substitute, but because the student is disrupted because their own regular teacher is not there, we should just dispense with having any kind of accountability or assessment in the system. That alone does not do it for me.

An Honourable Member: They take more time off to go to the teachers' annual general meeting.

Mr. McCrae: Well, that is the point.

An Honourable Member: The same sub-stitutes that nobody complains about.

Mr. McCrae: And we got talking–[interjection]

Mr. Chairperson: Order, please.

An Honourable Member: And the opposition does not complain–

Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. There is some difficulty with Hansard in terms of their recording for everybody and for the benefit of the committee. I think it is important that they be given the opportunity to record one comment, and we are listening to the minister's comments now. Would the minister continue, please.

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Mr. McCrae: The honourable member's question made me think of Mrs. Hammond. Now, Mrs. Hammond, Nellie Hammond from Brandon, used to quite often serve in the capacity as a substitute teacher. Well, in our community, maybe it is the magic of Brandon, I do not know, but I have known Nellie Hammond all my life because of those early experiences. She was a good friend to the students, and we have to be careful when we raise issues that we do not in some way offend the Mrs. Hammonds of the world either. There are a lot of people out there who are substitute teachers, and they are darn good substitute teachers, as well, but if that is true on marking day, then it must be true on other days when the regular homeroom teacher is not there. Now, that is one example. I understand that in order to attend MTS meetings, teachers have to get substitutes, and the children do without their regular homeroom teacher on that day, too.

So I do not know if there is that much of an issue with respect to that part, and you can agree or disagree, but I believe that some form–and in her heart of hearts I think the honourable member for St. James (Ms. Mihychuk) agrees with this. There needs to be some form of province-wide standards and province-wide testing against those standards. Sometimes it comes down to a question of are we implementing it as well as could be done. Sometimes we are; sometimes we are not. When we are not, we make some adjustments or corrections, because this is a human thing we are doing, and so we are going to make mistakes along the way, hopefully not very many. I do not want to preside over very many, but if we do, then we should acknowledge that and admit there is a better way, and so let us do it that better way.

But having made a terrifically important decision under New Directions that we are going to have standards for our children, and they are going to get into a society in the future in which they can compete and they can be happy and they can pass on those qualities, especially the happiness one, to their own children–I mean, we are affecting more in terms of a whole generation of people with this in a positive way, and that is the whole debate. Is it a positive or negative? If you are on the negative side of it, of course you are going to be upset about the local marking and having to have a substitute. You are going to be upset about the Grade 3 exam, which has caused some people some discomfort. You are going to be upset about all the different things that are being raised now in response to a changed system.

I have met an awful lot of people, and I have not found a consensus that is anywhere close to suggesting that we ought not to have standards in testing, even in Grade 3 where there is a larger number of dissenters, I suggest, than with respect to the other grades, but still not a majority, I would not think, at all.

So that is the way I have to answer that question. I do not know, maybe some children will be disadvantaged by having a substitute teacher in there, but, you know, there are some very good substitute teachers out there. They are certified teachers, too, and they do an excellent job from my own experience and that of those that I know today.

Ms. Mihychuk: Can the minister tell us how many days a marking teacher will be out of the classroom for the evaluation process?

Mr. McCrae: The teacher coming in to do marking for central marking could be away for four to five days. If it is mathematics, three at the most, simply because of the different natures of the different tests.

Ms. Mihychuk: Let me just understand that if they are seconded to do central marking, they would be away for four to five days for central and three days for mathematics. If they are locally marking, how many days are they going to be out of the classroom? Can the minister tell us how many days of professional development go along with that, because people cannot really be pulled out without being given the guidance or the training on how to mark?

Mr. McCrae: With respect to the local marking situation, the training is done locally but by departmental personnel, and the marking really depends on the division involved.

Ms. Mihychuk: The minister talked about this being a positive experience, and in some circumstances I have heard that, too, from teachers, that one of the benefits of this type of evaluation is the professional development that goes on amongst professionals when they sit in a group and discuss the questions and the interpretation, how children answer those questions. There is a professional growth that occurs with this type of marking, and I hear that from people who go into the central marking pool, that that is a positive experience for teachers to get together and talk about how kids learn, how they respond to the tests.

Is the minister concerned about that type of professional development for those teachers who are doing it locally?

Mr. McCrae: Well, Mr. Chairman, I think that we are here again. We are in a danged if you do and darned if you don't situation, and that is not the bad words like I said before, so I do not have to.

Mr. Chairman, on the one hand, I guess the central marking experience is a good profes-sional development experience, yet it takes one away from one's classroom. Actually, you can get the same benefit from a professional development standpoint locally, I am advised, but with a smaller number of teachers involved. So I guess I need to know from the honourable member which one of those ones she likes the best.

Ms. Mihychuk: I would like to continue a little bit on the process of assessment and evaluation. As far as I understand it, provincial exams are a way of measuring the results or outcomes of a certain test that you provide to students, and part of that evaluation or consistency would be that the evaluators somehow know how to mark the answer. Sometimes one teacher may give a mark that may vary considerably from another person who reads an answer.

So I wonder if there is a concern about consistency of marking as we move to the local level. Marking is a very complex process, especially in language arts, for example, where there is no clear-cut answer. It was not one of my strengths. I preferred the sciences and mathematics actually. The language arts com-ponent exam is quite an extensive and multifaceted test.

So one of the clear problems, I would think, that the Assessment branch has to deal with is consistency, and I wonder if the minister would make some comments about provincial consistency with local marking.

Mr. McCrae: Well, I understand those are legitimate concerns, and I think the department has viewed them as legitimate concerns. That is why there is training for teaching professionals coming in either centrally or locally to mark these exams, but that is why, also, in language arts, you are right, I used to disagree with my teacher and said so.

An Honourable Member: Good luck with a provincial exam.

* (1650)

Mr. McCrae: You see, that is why we have to have some kind of a random audit, and 20 percent of the tests that are done are audited, so that neither the student nor the teacher is going to win on that. It is going to be the system, I guess, in that particular case. It is going to come out with some kind of provincial result from which people can arrive at conclusions and make some kinds of judgment.

But, no, the member is right. Language arts is that kind of–I mean, I am sure the honourable member and I could read a poem and take some-thing different from it. But, on the other hand, that is why you do have the training which is part of it and the random audit system, so that we can have some level of consistency.

But it needs to be stated, as well, Mr. Chairman, that appeals are also allowed, and that can also help. If there is a deviation of as much as 2 to 3 percent, or as little as 2 to 3 percent between markers, it can be marked by a third marker as well. So I think there are some safe-guards there. Again, if the honourable member, I know she has some experience in these things, so if she has some advice for us, we are interested in hearing it. That is why I asked a little while ago which system do you like best.

Ms. Mihychuk: Has the department done an assessment or can you provide the statistical variability of central versus local marking?

Mr. McCrae: While I am looking for a response to that, the rotation is kind of like this: Grade 3 mathematics and language arts is something that is for every year; Grade 6 science every year; language arts and math in alternate years; Grade 9 by 2004 social studies every year and every three years mathematics, language arts and science; Senior 4, which is Grade 12, mathematics and language arts every year.

This is the first year for this local marking, and so we have not really developed much of a database yet, but the results of all of this do give us the opportunity to have a look at what is happening with the one system and the other system and to maybe make some judgments about it. I do not think there is really anything wrong with the local marking option. I guess it was brought forward because of concerns that people raised, not unlike the honourable member who raised the concern that the central marking took the teachers out of the classroom for too much. So the department responded by saying, well, okay, we will try to help you out with that problem and make the option of local marking available. So then after that happens, we hear today that, well, maybe the local marking is not valid, or something like that.

So I am having trouble again reconciling the two positions. But, again, I think it goes back to my very first reaction, are you against testing? I am not trying to put the honourable member on the spot, but really that is the question it raises in my mind. It is never somebody who favours testing and standards; never do we hear those people coming forward and saying, well, yes, but it takes a teacher out of the class and all the different things that get said by those who are opposed to the testing. I saw a sheet, I did not bring it with me, but there are some people who are going to have a test-free day, and they have all these reasons laid out as to why tests are bad, and yet tests have been part of school since–well, for a long time, I know that.

The thing that is bothering me, I guess, is the children. We are trying to teach them to get ready for life, and life is all about being tested. Life is all about being accountable. I am having trouble understanding the arguments being put forward by those who oppose a system of standards and testing against meeting those standards. I am actually not having too much trouble understanding those arguments because I think some of them are based on something that goes beyond the children, and I am here about the kids. I know my predecessor was, too, and I know the honourable member is. If we could focus on the kids and work carefully with our partners, the Teachers' Society and all of the others, work with them but putting the kids' interests ahead of our own at every stepC I say that to the stakeholders. Leave your stakes outside the door; come on in and let us talk about the kids.

So I hope that is what the honourable member will do. I know that her colleagues and herself have taken positions. I understand, but it is interesting that the positions often mirror the positions put forward by the Manitoba Teachers' Society regardless of whatever other positions there are out there, and some of them are pretty legitimate, too. The Teachers' Society now says that central marking is a pretty good thing, I understand, but they, as I understand it, lobbied hard to get rid of it in favour of local marking. Now the honourable member comes in and tells us local marking may be suspect. I know you have not gone that far, but you are getting close to that. I am detecting that that is the next thing. The point is, if we agree on the premise that standards across this province, across western Canada are a good thing, if we agree that we need some way to measure whether we are meeting those standards, all of the rest of it becomes let us get the details as smooth as we can.

I believe that is what it is about. I believe in standards, and, you know, I wish those standards and tests had been in place for when my children were going through the system. I still have one in Grade 11, so we are not totally out of it, but I know from our family's experience that children in my own family would have benefited had the system put in by my honourable predecessors–if that had been in place, my children who are in their 20s now would be having a better time of it.

I am not saying that they are having a terrible time because, as I said before, we have an excellent and have had an excellent education system. My kids are well ahead of their counter-parts in many other parts of the world, but I am telling you, not all of my five are exactly the same. They go through a different rate of success and different challenges affect them differently. But I wish New Directions had come sooner than they did, because they are the right thing to do for the children of Manitoba because, goodness sakes, we are not doing them any favours if we teach them from Grade 1 or from kindergarten on that life is a beach. You know, life is partly a beach, but there is a whole lot of other parts of life too that those kids need to be prepared for, and we needed to bring our system up to speed so that they could grasp the opportunities that are going to be there for them and their families.

Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. The hour being 5 p.m., I am interrupting the proceedings for House business. Committee rise.