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Mr. Chairperson (Ben Sveinson): Order, please. Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This afternoon, this section of the Committee of Supply meeting in Room 255 will resume consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship. When the committee last sat, it had been considering item 14.1. Administration and Finance (d) Manitoba Film Classification Board (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $156,200, but in a far-ranging way, on page 41 of the Estimates book.

Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): I had some questions for the minister about the classification of videos. I have had some concern because we have three young children and we often rent videos, and when we get home with the video, we are often surprised and often angered and embarrassed by either violence or language in the videos. We feel that we have been inadequately informed about the language or level of violence on a fairly regular basis.

I will even just comment that even a Christmas movie like Jingle All the Way, for example, sure enough, had a gun in it. You almost get to expect that a gun is going to show up at some point, even during a general movie.

But I want to deal with some more serious concerns on the classification topic. It was just a few weeks ago, we went to the country inn at Gimli for a family getaway for one night. We went down to get a video from their selection. There was one movie called Nine Months starring Hugh Grant. It had a sticker on it, G, for General, I presume. When we brought the movie back to the room, we discovered that there was foul language in it and there was sex in it, although not explicit. This angered us. I was embarrassed in front of the children. I thought that we had been misled.

I know that when you look at the package that the video is contained in, there will be a printed classification in most cases, particularly for the newer movies. As well, you may find one or even two stickers on the package, sometimes over top of the printed classification and sometimes not.

I note, for example, there is a movie, Cliffhanger, out. It is a Sylvester Stallone movie. The package had noted that it was Restricted, but the sticker on it said 14. Die Hard 2, for example, was noted to be Restricted on the package but the sticker said 14, the same for The Opposite of Sex. I looked at Lethal Weapon 4, what it said. There was Restricted on the printed message on the package. Then it had a sticker on it that said 18A, and then it had a third classification on there, on the second sticker, which said 14. That is getting quite confusing when you have three different classifications on one video.

I noticed the comedy Almost Heroes was classified as PG-13. It then had a sticker 18A on it and also had another sticker that said PG on it. Now, other than the confusion, there also seems to be a theme here, being that the industry classification, that is the classification that is printed onto the sleeve of the video, is more restrictive or is at a higher standard than the sticker. This tells me that the industry standard is higher than the provincial video classification standard.

I wonder if the minister can explain if that observation is accurate and if the video classification sticker reflects the work of the Film Classification Board and provincial regulation.

Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship): The member makes an accusation about the classification done here by our own community standards, by our own video classification. It is not to my knowledge that our Film Classification Board does not classify with the best of community intentions and in a sometimes generally seen by the industry as too strict method, because the member may be aware of some recent publicity which has dealt with the fact that they feel Manitoba is in fact far too strict.

There are sometimes several ratings on a jacket cover, however, one being an industry rating by the U.S., one being a Canadian industry rating, which is sometimes an average of what Film Classification Boards have in fact across the board classified this at, and then there is the classification by our Film Classification Board. If the member has a concern about the way in which a video has been classified locally, according to our own community standards, then the action that would be very helpful for him to take is to phone the board and let them know.

Mr. Mackintosh: Yes, but I am coming to the minister who is responsible for the legislation today, and I think on behalf of many others in the community. First of all, with regard to the minister's comment and observation that some in the community think our classification is far too strict, right now, what is her view?

Mrs. Vodrey: Well, we have from the member for St. Johns the typical NDP line which says that everything should rest centrally in government, there should be no devolution to school boards, to Film Classification Boards or to anyone else. The member says then that he comes today to speak directly to the minister, and the minister has appointed, according to the legislation, a Film Classification Board to represent community standards with a mechanism for members to make their points known.

However, I am happy to take what he has said under advisement, and I will pass it onto the Film Classification Board. What we see here in Estimates again is the trend generally taken by the member for St. Johns and the NDP party in general which does not respect the process of the community's partnership with whatever government may do. In fact, it has been an ongoing theme, that there should be no partnership and that it simply should be a centralized government decision.

In my opinion, I believe that the Film Classification Board does in fact represent quite reasonable community standards. However, if the member has some suggestions to make about that, then I will be happy to discuss them. That is what we are here for in Estimates.

Mr. Mackintosh: That was an interesting speech.

This current government appointed the current members of the Film Classification Board?

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, if the member's question was has this government appointed the current board, to my knowledge, with various appointment dates, the current members now have been appointed by this government.

Mr. Mackintosh: Does the minister interview the members of the board before they are appointed, or how is the selection process determined?

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, no, I do not interview the members before appointment, but the appointments are made by the minister. The chair of the Film Classification Board will often mention a particular area of interest or age range or specific skill, geographic area, to make sure that this in fact does meet a community standard.

Mr. Mackintosh: Well, are the members of the Film Classification Board appointed because they meet specific criteria? For example, are they members of the Conservative Party, are they workers? Is that the criteria, or are there other criteria?

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Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, well, for the member to come up with that, I presume that is how it was done when the NDP were in power, and we would have to check back to see if the members on the Film Classification Board were all members of the NDP party when the member opposite and his party were in the position to appoint members.

However, we attempt to appoint members who meet community standard, who represent a community standard. As I said to the member, there are types of representation which then the chair of the Film Classification Board may recommend for consideration.

Mr. Mackintosh: Well, the minister has not answered the question. I mean, how do they come to the minister's attention? Does she put an ad in the paper asking for people to volunteer? Is it just people that she knows personally or people her colleagues in cabinet have passed on to her? I think we are entitled to know where these people come from.

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, people who are interested often will phone in, say that they are interested, make their interest known to the Film Classification Board, make their interest known to the chair of the Film Classification Board. We had a number of calls recently when there was quite a lot of media around the Film Classification Board of people phoning and expressing their interest and saying why they might be interested.

Mr. Mackintosh: Well, of those who are currently on the Film Classification Board, how many have phoned in with their names, which therefore led to their appointment?

Mrs. Vodrey: The members currently have come from a variety of sources. If the member has a particular person he would like to bring forward and question their right to be on the Film Classification Board, their representation of a community standard, then I think he should make himself known.

Mr. Mackintosh: I do not think the minister understood my question. I will move on to another question. Is there a designation of certain interest on the Film Classification Board? For example, are there certain positions that are filled from people from the film industry, some from the general arts community? Are there certain people who are parents of small children, for example? Maybe she can break down for me, if she will, the different interests that are represented on the board.

Mrs. Vodrey: No, there are not people from the film industry on the board, as the member would probably know. That would potentially be a conflict of interest, and so there are not people selected for that interest. The Film Classification Board makes every effort to represent a community standard within the province, and so the member should represent a geographic interest and the wide variety of interests as are Manitobans in general.

Mr. Mackintosh: Can the minister assure us that there are people on the board who have small children?

Mrs. Vodrey: Yes.

Mr. Mackintosh: The minister says that the qualification is that they meet community standard and represent community standard. How does she assure herself of that?

Mrs. Vodrey: Well, as I said, sometimes the chair will come forward with a recommendation for a person who represents a certain geographic area or families' age range. So the effort is made in looking at the Film Classification Board to try and represent what are the interests of ordinary Manitobans, a range of ordinary Manitobans, which in fact would deal with the community standard. If the member has a particular difficulty with a member of the board, then I would hope he would come forward and let me know.

Mr. Mackintosh: Well, when I look at a particular movie, and let us take The Opposite of Sex for example, which was classified as restricted by–at least that is how it was indicated on the package in print, and it was reduced to 14 by what I understand would be the Manitoba Film Classification Board. First of all, I want the minister to confirm whether that reduction was done by the Manitoba Film Classification Board, or was it some other body?

Mrs. Vodrey: I appreciate the member actually asking could this be clarified because his history is to bring things forward as if they are fact and then have to retract. So I cannot confirm that, Mr. Chair, because I did not have that movie nor has it been offered to the committee for review.

Mr. Mackintosh: So is the minister saying that The Opposite of Sex has not been reviewed by the Manitoba Film Classification Board?

Mrs. Vodrey: No. I mean the committee that we are currently sitting in and he is participating in.

Mr. Mackintosh: I just want a simple answer from the minister. There was an R printed on the sleeve of the video, and now there is a sticker on there. It is a triangle, and it says 14. Who authorized and classified it for the sticker?

Mrs. Vodrey: Again, the member has not brought the video forward. I have no way of knowing what is on that video, and so I am not able to provide him the answer.

Mr. Mackintosh: Well, if the minister will accept this for a moment. A particular movie, any movie, says R on it, printed, and then next to the R is a triangle that says 14 on it. Would the minister tell me where did the 14 sticker come from? Who authorized that sticker?

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, I find it always very dangerous to accept anything that the member brings forward without proof, so what I would say to him is this: if he has a concern about the classification of a movie, please put it in writing, submit it to the Film Classification Board, copy me as minister and let me look into the matter, but it is absolutely absurd to walk into a committee of the Legislature and to expect out of thousands of movies that I am going to have some personal knowledge of the stickers on a video that he found somewhere in this province. It is simply absurd to expect that.

So what I would ask him to do, which is what he rightly should have done in the beginning, and I am very happy to provide him with the information, if he has a question about the classification, please check with the Film Classification Board. If he has a complaint about the classification, please put it in writing. Let the Film Classification Board act on it; let his views as a citizen then be reflected in the concerns which are being brought forward by the members of the Film Classification Board. By all means, for me as minister, please copy me, let me know, so that I can also ensure that the information has been dealt with by the Film Classification Board. I think that is, in fact, the most constructive way to deal with the issues of concern.

I would say that to him as a parent. I would say that to parents, in general, who would ask me if they feel in some way that a video has not been classified appropriately or they have questions about that. We do have a Film Classification Board where those answers can be received, and we would like to make sure people have them.

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The Film Classification Board does reflect a community standard. It is expected to reflect a community standard. It does not censor; it classifies. So where Manitobans, in general, have these concerns, the Film Classification Board should, in fact, be made aware of the concerns. I would suggest to him that that may be his most appropriate course of action.

Mr. Mackintosh: What I am complaining about today to the minister is: why is there a general pattern of a lower standard for classification exhibited on a sticker as opposed to, as compared to the printed classification? I ask the minister: is it correct to assume that the sticker on the video sleeve is there because of the role of the Manitoba Film Classification Board?

Mrs. Vodrey: Well, as I said to the member, I cannot tell him because I do not see it in front of me. I am not able to somehow conjure up in my mind what it is that he has seen, but what I am asking him is to clarify with the Film Classification Board the issue that he has brought forward. Then it becomes a matter of his own personal view as to what the classification might be.

The Film Classification Board classifies according to the community standards of the community members who are currently there, but they are certainly able to receive complaints if the member has a complaint to make about a particular classification.

Classifications may also be appealed. So if the member has a concern about a particular classification and if that classification has been done by our Film Classification Board, then to make the most of our discussion today, I believe that it would be important for him to actually follow the route that is set out.

Now, if the basis of his question is something other than to actually find out what to do, if it is some kind of a political argument, then that is also making itself clear.

Mr. Mackintosh: Yes, I think I am in politics and I think the minister is in politics, so this is a political discussion. It is a political questioning of the minister to find out what is the basis of a different kind of classification. It is a simple question. The minister thinks this is some political ambush or something. It is a simple question from one parent to another, if you will.

Take away the politics. On any level, it should be an intelligent kind of discussion. I simply want to know, why is it that there is a 14 on these packages as opposed to an R on the packages? Can the minister explain why some packages have three different classifications, or is she completely clued out?

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, I would ask you to ask the member to lower his voice. The screaming in committee is really unacceptable.

My answer to him is as it has been; one parent to another, though, let us remove the politics. My answer to him is the same answer that I gave him in the beginning. If he has a question about the classification and he is not sure which classification actually represents our local film board classification, please check with our Film Classification Board, and if he has a complaint about that classification to please register his complaint about the classification, and if he would like to copy me with his complaint about the classification, to please do so.

The answer has been the same at least three times, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Mackintosh: Is the minister saying she does not know, then, why those stickers are on those videos? I mean, she is not giving an answer. Why might there be a sticker on those video sleeves?

Mrs. Vodrey: In the very first answer, I did explain to the member that there is a classification by the U.S. industry, there is a classification by the Canadian industry, and then there is a classification by our Film Classification Board. Because he has not brought any evidence here for me to look at on a particular film that he has referenced, it is impossible for me to tell him.

So what I am asking him to do, then, is either bring forward further evidence, please make his concerns known to the Film Classification Board, and underlying all this, is he saying the Film Classification Board is not strict enough in what they are bringing forward? It is not really clear to me whether he is saying they are not strict enough, or they are not accurate enough. I have to say that he has just not made himself clear.

Mr. Mackintosh: Does the minister not have concern as to how consumers are to discern these three different labels? I mean, I am trying to understand the minister's view here. Does she support three different labels, for example, on Lethal Weapon 4 at Movie Village today, which has an R printed on the package, an 18A, and a 14? Is that acceptable to the minister?

Mrs. Vodrey: Oh, I hardly know where to begin with the member for St. Johns again. Let me go back to this from the beginning. I believe that the Canadian classification should have had an identification that called it the Canadian classification, and there also should be a way to identify our classification, but I do not have that particular video that was classified in front of me. Therefore it is almost impossible for me to speak about that. I did ask him, did he think classifications were too strict or not strict enough? That is not yet clear to me.

When he asked about how are people to discern, Manitoba actually was very interested in a national classification system, a classification system that, in fact, would be consistent across the country, but there was not interest in doing this by other jurisdictions. There was a view that for those who classify, that the classification should be done on a community standard, a local community standard.

So that is what we still do. We do, in Manitoba, a local community standard, and for those who are unhappy with a particular classification, then they should do what has been expressed, and I am happy to review it again. What they should do is this. They should phone the Film Classification Board or go in. They should find out which classification applies, local classification, if there is any concern. If they believe that the classification is incorrect according to their personal standard, then they should make that view known to the Film Classification Board. Then, if he or any other citizen wishes to copy me on their concerns, and if we find that our community standard, as reflected by our Film Classification Board, is somehow causing a great deal of complaint, well, then, that would obviously be something of great concern.

Then, finally, as I have said, there is an opportunity to appeal a classification. If the member feels that that would be helpful to him, that option is also open.

Mr. Mackintosh: Well, I guess I have to proceed then on the understanding that the 14 sticker on videos in Manitoba are put there by the Film Classification Board of Manitoba. In light of the movies that I cited, and others, and I do not think we have to get into particular movies, is it the minister's opinion that Manitoba–in fact, if we classify on the basis of a local community standard–has a lower standard than the U.S. industry standard?

Mrs. Vodrey: I do not accept what the member has said. I do not know that it is harsher either, but I do not think that he can take for granted, as he would like to suggest, that Manitoba's standard is lower than a U.S. industry-based standard.

In this case, I think it would be important for him to actually find out the facts. He comes again to a legislative committee, as he comes to the House all the time, with half a story–half a story. We see half a story every day, and we have another just half a story, if that, today.

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So he has come to seek information, and I would like to give him the benefit of the doubt in that way, and I would like to say to him, here is how you can clarify. Now, if we find out in your clarification that there is something that is quite different about the classification here than in some other place, then you are right. I, too, would like to know what the explanation is, but I cannot tell him that our classification system is for some reason less stringent or not reflective of reasonably good assessment of a film. I would not want to say that here, and I would frankly not believe that to be the case.

Classification is based on community standards. If the member has a dispute with that, then he should bring it forward. I am informed during the course of this discussion that there is generally about five appeals a year, so I would say for all of the classifications that are done here, those classifications appear to meet the approval of the community standards in the classification of films. If they were extremely unreliable, then you would certainly expect that there would be more appeals per year than there are.

Mr. Mackintosh: Well, as the minister responsible, I am surprised if the minister has not also observed that there appears to be a pattern of reducing the classification from R, which according to her–well, from R, which is the U.S. industry standard, down in Manitoba. I mean, has the minister not observed that? Has she not ever spoken to the Classification Board about why that is so or asked any questions about that? I cannot be the only one who has observed that pattern.

Mrs. Vodrey: Does the member have any evidence of this pattern that he would like to bring forward to the committee? He references a pattern. He appears to have seen a pattern. I would be very interested to know, in establishing that pattern, how many films he has observed in that pattern and what information he would like to bring before this committee, rather than simply a statement which we are to accept. It is not accepted, by the way, unless he is able to provide some background.

Mr. Mackintosh: I think the minister has really given a pathetic response. I am not prepared to accept her position, responsibility and accountability here. There are parents that have expressed concern to me, and I am surprised that they have not expressed concern to the minister or other government colleagues of hers about the classification scheme that appears to be more lenient or to a lower standard on the sticker as opposed to the printed classification. I gave the minister some examples and some of them are rather bewildering, and I think the minister owes a duty to Manitobans to at least explain the process, how people are chosen other than geography, I think was her explanation. I am surprised the minister has not observed that there appears to be a pattern here. Has the minister met with the Film Classification Board and questioned the members of that board or provided any assistance to the board?

Mrs. Vodrey: First of all, I understand that most of the appeals are that our classification is too restrictive, so I have not seen the pattern or had reported to me a pattern which the member attempts to reference by way of two examples. So I would say to him that if he has further examples, information that citizens have brought forward to him, I would like to see it. Provide the information, work in a co-operative way, give us information that has been provided to you, and let us have a look at it. But this afternoon, I think that we have heard quite questionable information brought forward by the member for St. Johns, not reliable, no evidence. So it is very difficult to accept what he has said.

I believe he is trying to ask, too, whether or not my personal views should be inserted into the decisions of the Film Classification Board, and again, as we started with this afternoon, we know that the NDP style is to do that. It is to insert from central government a very specific point of view, a point of view in relation to school boards not having any business with any authority whatsoever, everything coming from the Department of Education. We have seen this in several examples brought forward in relation to classification of films, so what I see, Mr. Chair, is a pattern. I see a pattern brought forward by the NDP of control, of no community partnership, of also no faith in a community standard. However, I think that if there are concerns that have been brought forward, it is really important for us to know what they are. I would ask the member, as I have asked him over the years that he and I have operated on opposite sides of the House, if you have evidence, bring it forward.

Mr. Mackintosh: Well, that political diatribe is not helpful to parents. I will share this record with them. This is an important issue to a lot of people. I do not think the statements add anything to this discussion.

I will just leave with the minister the information that I have. The movie Nine Months, for example, being classified with a sticker as G at the Gimli country inn, is a concern, because that, in my view, in every way was not a general movie. I would like to know who put the G there. I would like to know what classification that went through. I think the minister has to be accountable to that movie being classified as general, accountable to my children for one.

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, now the member has raised a specific question which I will look into on his behalf. Secondly, I hope he does share the Hansard with the community. I would say that the process outlined during the series of half-questions brought forward never changed. The process has never changed in whatever angle or partial piece of information the member has brought forward. The process remains the same, and I believe it is a helpful process. If the member shares with the community information which helps them know how they can clarify, if he shares with the community what they can do if they are concerned, that there is an appeal mechanism, then I think that would be helpful. If there is anything that I find further which indicates that people need to know more about this, then I will certainly be very interested in acting on that also.

Mr. Mackintosh: Well, I will leave the minister with a couple of other concerns, and this is not particularly with regard to the level of classification, but the confusion caused by the varying classifications. At Movie Village, Lethal Weapon 4 has three classifications–R, 18A and 14. Almost Heroes at Movie Village has three classifications–PG13, 18A and PG. Now, there is a confusion, because there is a significant difference.

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Then I leave with the minister, and I ask her to go to her local video store and look and start to compare and see how confusing it is and ask whether there are differing standards applied that are quite outstanding. I Still Know What You Did Last Summer, on the package it says R; in the store it says 14. How Stella Got Her Groove Back, the package says R; in the store it says 14. The Opposite of Sex, the package says R; the store says 14. Die Hard 2, the package says R; the sticker says 14. Cliffhanger, R it says on the package, and 14 in the store.

Those are some examples, but I ask her to go and see whether, in her view, there is a pattern or not. If she cannot answer, she perhaps can get the Film Classification Board to get back to me in terms of why it is that there is that differential. I am not making a value judgment here. I am asking: why is it that in Manitoba there is a sticker that is quite different than a printed classification on the video?

Mrs. Vodrey: Well, now the member has in fact given us some information, and it is a little bit more information than I believe we had, however, Mr. Chair. So what I think needs to happen for the member is to clarify whether or not those are in fact our classifications or industry classifications, and then if there are classifications to get some reasoning. If he wishes to make a complaint about the classifications then he certainly should do so, as any citizen would be entitled and hopefully would do themselves.

Ms. Diane McGifford (Osborne): Mr. Chair, I wanted to suggest to the committee that the member for St. Johns did not mean to, and I do not think he did, pick on Movie Village, which is in Osborne Village and one of the best video outlets I think in the city. Anyway, I will not advertise for them. They do very well by themselves. It is a very fine video outlet.

I did want to tell the minister, I have had people phone me and complain about classifications, more of videos and films, and I am very glad today to hear that there is an appeal process, because I did not know that there was. What I have generally done is outline to individuals the classification system, and so I am glad to hear that there is an appeal process. I understand from what I have picked up that the appeal process would require a citizen to phone the Film Classification Board and say: I protest, and would you please reconsider the classification of this particular film or video? Is that the case?

Mrs. Vodrey: Yes, I am informed that that would be the start. Then there are forms which an individual who wishes to make a complaint or to file an appeal would then fill out.

Ms. McGifford: I am assuming the forms would be available through phoning the Film Classification Board.

Mrs. Vodrey: Yes, that is correct.

Ms. McGifford: One of the things that does concern me is the multiple labels. I can understand the reasons for the multiple labels, but I think it is important for Manitobans to know which of the labels is a Manitoban label. Is that information available as perhaps part of the video retailing licensing? Is that available in all video stores and publicly noticeable so that people can see a video and say: well, Manitoba feels this way, the industry feels this way, and this is another kind of rating, because if we have community standards we need to know which one is the community standard?

Mrs. Vodrey: I think that is a very reasonable expectation that people should know which is the classification from our own classification. So, if it requires some information–I understand in about 1991 there used to be posters which people then could use as a reference to know which was our classification and what our classification system meant. If a person is not able to distinguish which rating system is which, we want them to know which is our local rating system. So I will certainly look into finding out that, if in fact we do not have a clear name on the label, then how do we provide the education which tells people which is in fact ours? That is quite a reasonable expectation.

Ms. McGifford: I thank the minister for that. It apparently was not clear to the member for St. Johns (Mr. Mackintosh), so I am sure there are many individuals to whom it is not clear. It has not been an issue for me personally, but I do not rent video films for children. So I am responsible for my personal taste, and it has not been a problem for me. [interjection] I will let that comment go by. I do have a funny story I may share with you sometime, though.

I also wonder if there is a set of printed criteria in regard to board members for the Film Classification Board.

Mrs. Vodrey: No, there is not, so we are not attempting to slot in specifically certain people, but we do strive for a community standard.

Ms. McGifford: So then some of the things that you would be considering–and you mentioned a couple to the member for St. Johns (Mr. Mackintosh) are that the geographical areas of Manitoba are represented, and I am gathering from the remarks there that it was also important that there be some parents. I wonder if there are any other general guidelines that the minister has operated under.

Mrs. Vodrey: We do strive for a balance. As I said, we do look at things such as gender. We would like the Classification Board to have a balance in that way, a balance in terms of age, to have some people who are younger and some people who are older and more experienced, some cultural balance as well, some geographical balance, and when there is an opportunity on the Film Classification Board, to then look at what requirements might be there.

Ms. McGifford: Then I wonder if the minister could forward to me a list of the current board members on the Film Classification Board. I do not really have a complete list. I also would like to ask her, and I think this is probably a rhetorical question: are the same standards used in classifying films that appear in our theatres as are used in classifying home videos or videos for home use or whatever the right expression is?

Mrs. Vodrey: Yes, the definition and the regulations are the same for both.

Ms. McGifford: Yesterday I was told that the video fee for a video retail outlet was $105 if it was purchased before the 1st of April, and I believe it was $120 if it were purchased after the 1st of April. Then I discovered in my files a sheet from the Manitoba Film Classification Board dated July 1998 in which it says that the adult video retailer licence fee in Manitoba is $95. Is that an additional $95 or has there been some change? I would like to have the explanation, please.

Mrs. Vodrey: I am not sure where the $105 came from. I am not sure if I heard the member correctly when she was recalling yesterday. The information that I have is that the video licence fee is $75 before April 1, $95 after April 1, and that it is the same for all retailers.

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Ms. McGifford: I think that the $105 made its way into this discussion because one of my constituents phoned me, a man who has a video retail–well, he does not really have a video retail, but he sells the odd video. I brought it up right at the end of our discussions here yesterday, and he is the person who told me he was asked to pay a $105 fee.

Now, perhaps he was mistaken in his figure, and perhaps it was $75. Obviously, people here do not know whether he was mistaken, so the answer then is that it is $75 for a video retail fee before the 1st of April and that there is no special fee for an adult video store.

Mrs. Vodrey: It is the same fee, I am informed. I am sorry, I do not have a Hansard from yesterday to reference how we discussed the number yesterday.

Ms. McGifford: Now, I do see on this piece of paper from the Film Classification Board, which is labelled adult video retailer licence fees by province. It says, Manitoba, $95, and then in brackets, $75 if paid before licence expiry date.

Can the minister tell me, or perhaps her staff would know the answer to this question, if there are differential fees for, I will use the term ordinary video retailers and adult video retailers in other jurisdictions? I mention this because it seems to me since the minister knows, because I am on the record as having said I object strongly to adult video retailers, period, but since they are in our community, it seems to me there is a great opportunity to make at least a little bit of money out of them by charging them a higher fee.

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, we do not have the information available to us here that gives us any provincial comparison, but we certainly could look at that and provide the member with the comparison and also take note of the recommendation or the suggestion that perhaps there may be a differential fee, depending upon the content rating of adult videos versus general classification videos.

Ms. McGifford: I would like to ask the minister a few questions about the video game classification awareness program that her department is currently engaged in. I wonder if the minister could tell me something about the public consultations which I believe the department underwent, who they consulted with, when, where, that sort of thing.

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, the information that I can provide to the member is information when we were looking at how we should proceed, and there was discussion with the industry as well as discussion with parent councils about the value of the education program. So we attempted to, in discussing with the industry, the province-wide education program that we are embarking on, we have–I am not sure if the member wants the names–letters of support from Microplay, The North West Company, Rogers Video, Video Software Dealers Association, Wal-Mart, Zellers. We have understood, from the Winnipeg Sun, Blockbuster video has offered support. I do not yet have in my hand their letter of support, and we also have support indicated by the parent advisory councils that they will be putting in their newsletter information about this province-wide campaign focusing on public education.

Ms. McGifford: When the minister was reading from the list of businesses, are those the parties that the minister means by the industry or is the industry something different?

Mrs. Vodrey: That is the industry that I was speaking about, those people who would in fact be having direct contact with the public where they would be renting or selling the video games.

Ms. McGifford: So these parties are the distributors as opposed to the makers of the videos?

Mrs. Vodrey: Just so that we are clear about the categories of groups, we did have direct contact with ESRB, who actually deals with the people who make the video games. The next category are people who are the distributors. What they do is simply then pass the product on to those people who are the sellers. The distributors we did not work with, because they take the product when created and pass it on to the sellers. We had contact with ESRB, not with the distributors, but then the next one is the seller, who has direct contact with the public.

Ms. McGifford: I wonder if the minister could tell me who supports the ESRB.

Mrs. Vodrey: The Entertainment Software Rating Board, the ESRB, is an independent rating system. It was established by the Inter-active Digital Software Association, IDSA, which is the leading trade association for the interactive entertainment software industry. It does receive its financial support from the manufacturers, but it is an independent rating system.

Ms. McGifford: I think that there are ways of being independent and there are ways of being independent. It seems to me it is being supported by the manufacturers of these products. It might lead some people to speculate as to its value as a rating board. What I really wanted to do was to ask the minister some questions about the public awareness program. I understand that her government is committed to a program which is designed to provide a guide rather than to classify.

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Mrs. Vodrey: At the moment, we are not classifying here ourselves. We are using a system of classification which is an international system. Our goal is then to make sure that there is a public awareness about how to use that classification system. However, as the member knows, we will be amending The Amusements Act to provide for our ability to classify should we find that this is not successful, working in partnership with the industry.

Ms. McGifford: Under the public awareness program, really, then, not much has changed. In fact, nothing has changed. There is a program to alert the public, to give parents information about video games. I remember the day of the announcement in I believe it was Rogers Video, some of the minister's staff were pointing out to me the classification or the letter–let us say classification–from the ESRB. It appeared that these video games had been there and had been classified for some time.

I am assuming, then, that is the case, and what the minister's government is committed to is alerting the public and bringing parental attention to the fact that indeed there is a rating on many of these videos.

Mrs. Vodrey: The games have been rated. This system has been in place since about 1994. The problem that parents have expressed here in Manitoba, and I understand from listening to the radio, watching TV and reading the newspaper that parents in general were not aware of the fact that this information was contained on the jacket of the video game and that they could find out. Parents who were then told after the fact that there was a way to receive that information said that they did not know about this.

One of the things that was very important was to then put a highlight or a spotlight on the fact that this classification system is available, and that it is meaningful in an international way, because not only do parents want to know about this when they are here in Manitoba and they are renting or buying video games, but when they go away on holidays, if they happen to go across the Ontario border, across the Saskatchewan border or into the States and they want to rent or buy a video game, the same system of classification is used and they can understand the symbols. So what we are doing here is a public awareness campaign to help parents in being able to monitor on behalf of their children both the classification symbol which is on the front of the game, and on the back of the game there is a content description which tells you a little bit more about it.

If parents in Manitoba become aware of that and start to use it, they will be able to use that when they go to other places with their families, as well. That is why there has been a benefit to the use of the international system also.

Ms. McGifford: The minister speaks of an international system. I wonder about the extent of its internationality. Is it European, American? How extensive is it?

Mrs. Vodrey: It is a North American rating system. But I think in this case, it may be quite useful because the mobility of people among provinces and into the States just south of us–and people are very mobile and it does provide some degree of consistency. Again, parents will learn to recognize the rating symbol, and if they have any further questions they can turn it over, and they can see the content descriptor.

Ms. McGifford: So since this system is entirely voluntary, many of our retail outlets may choose not to use it. We do not know that, I suppose, at this point, but it would also seem to me, then, the situation is that any individual regardless of that individual's age could still purchase or rent any video game.

Mrs. Vodrey: Well, I would just like to clarify in terms of using it as the member said. These ratings are on, I understand, the biggest majority of video games, and so what we are asking retail outlets or sellers to comply with is the public awareness campaign.

We do have very good reason to believe that there will be very good co-operation, but in the event that a single outlet fails to co-operate with the education system, by and large, people do rent or buy at a number of video outlets, and because there will be a radio and a newspaper campaign to educate people, parents, then, will still be able to use that information.

Now, obviously, what we are looking for is the partnership with all of the sellers in terms of the public awareness campaign, but, again, if people go into Ontario or Saskatchewan where there is not a public awareness campaign, they still will be able to look at this video game and get information about the video game.

Ms. McGifford: The minister has already begun to answer my next question. That was: I wondered if she could provide some details of the public awareness campaign, and she seems to be entertaining that there will be some information on radio and some in newspapers. Could she provide me some more details?

Mrs. Vodrey: I would like to first recognize Cindy Stevens, who is the executive director of Information Resources for my department. I am informed that the public awareness campaign through newspaper and radio will begin June 12. It will be covered in all daily and weekly newspapers, newspapers within the city of Winnipeg and community newspapers, whether they are daily or weekly, and there will be spots on all radio stations in both Winnipeg and rural Manitoba.

Ms. McGifford: I wonder if the minister has developed a set of standards that will enable her to determine whether the voluntary system or the voluntary awareness program that she is promoting is in fact working. What will be the sign that it is working? What will the signs be that it is not working?

Mrs. Vodrey: I am going to try and approach this from a couple of points of view. First of all, the compliance among the sellers or the retailers or the renters of the video games, we will be looking for compliance and their participation in the public awareness campaign. We will have our inspectors out as they are out for all matters. They will be using this as one of the issues that they will be inspecting for, and that is compliance.

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Then, in terms of how people uptake the information, we have brochures that will be displayed in the outlets, which the member has. We will also be looking for the fact that those brochures are actually taken and used. Then we will also see if there is any further comment which comes from parents either at the time of renting or buying or phoned into the classification board or myself regarding the videos.

As the member knows, this really is going to take the support of parents too. You can regulate and you can make laws, but you need the support of the people who are actually in the place with the children. We also will be looking to see if we have further feedback or comment from the parent advisory councils, but it will be in terms of its real value. Are parents, once being made aware, actually using the system and finding it helpful to themselves and their families?

Ms. McGifford: I think I am following the minister here. She spoke about inspectors visiting retailers and looking for compliance. What would the evidence of compliance be?

Mrs. Vodrey: The compliance will be that they have the posters displayed, that they have the brochures displayed and that those brochures are easily and readily accessible and that the posters are also readily accessible and in a place that would be helpful when you are renting or buying video games.

Ms. McGifford: I just want to share with the minister what my concern is finally. I know that most parents are extremely conscientious and are very interested in the products that their children view and purchase and that become part of their children's lives. Unfortunately, not all parents are, for a variety of reasons. We do not need to go into the reasons. I am sure the minister knows from the work that she has done in her various ministries and in her work before she became a politician that all parents are not there for their children and are not interested in what their children are viewing.

So I am very concerned for those children because it does not seem to me that this voluntary program, awareness program–and I told the minister's staff the day that the awareness campaign was introduced, I thought it had merit, but it does not seem to me that it addresses the concern that I brought forth. So I do want to put that on the record.

Mrs. Vodrey: First of all, I appreciate the member's comments of having some positive remarks to say about the effort to educate parents.

In the areas of her concern, I would say that it is always hard where there are parents who are not interested. But I am trying to put together how you take an uninterested parent and you say, well, if we happen to classify here in Manitoba, why would that be different than this international classification system, and also that games are available, as I know the member knows, on the Internet, for instance, which is quite unclassified and available for kids who can play in any number of venues.

So I think it was our view that we would like to begin first of all in partnership with the sellers, so that we could in the place where I believe probably most of the video games are rented or bought, that this public education program could actually assist parents and fill in the blanks where parents do not know, so that then if children are playing games on the Internet, parents at least have some way to get some information about that.

It is a start. As the member knows, as well, we are bringing forward legislation. It is now in second reading. We will be watching the program, too. The games are so complex that, as the member knows, depending on which route you choose, once you get into the game, you can end up with all kinds of different outcomes. It is very easy, you know, if somebody really wants to subvert the system, for kids to go this route when parents are there and this route when parents are not there.

So we are looking at a way to try and educate parents who, by and large, are a generation of people, you know, like me, who did not grow up with computers and the Internet and these kinds of games.

Ms. McGifford: Well, I think that we have chosen to classify home videos and films because we believe in the importance of a community standard for the protection of our children for, I suppose, the furthering of our morals and simply to recognize our ideas of civilized behaviour. I do not quite understand the logic between classifying films and videos but not video games, and perhaps we should best delay the whole discussion to the committee following second reading.

I did want to ask the minister if she could assure me that the amendment that she is proposing would indeed allow for the classification of video games, because I was reading the regulations, and I think it is 54.1(1) that allows for certain exemptions. Video games, I believe, is listed there along with some other things.

I am wondering if the regulation would be changed or whether the amendment would allow for classification but not make it mandatory.

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, the amendment allows for classification which simply provides the empowerment or the authority puts classification –the ability to classify–within the scope of the Film Classification Board, and then if we decide that we want to make it mandatory it would be included in the regulations.

Ms. McGifford: So then this particular regulation would be changed.

Mrs. Vodrey: That is correct, Mr. Chair.

Ms. McGifford: I wonder if the minister could tell me exactly how much revenue the Film Classification Board generates, or if not exactly, almost exactly.

Mrs. Vodrey: The Film Classification Board generates revenue to basically cover its cost and slightly better, and the cost recovery this time was $350,000.

Ms. McGifford: I notice that the estimated subappropriation for next year is $441,000, so presumably it will not cover the cost next year.

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, yes, the dollar amount for this year reflects the dollars that were put in by government this year to deal with this new initiative regarding the public awareness campaign about the ESRB classification system.

Ms. McGifford: So is the public awareness program, as it is currently conceived, a program for next year?

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, well, it is in the budget for this fiscal year and then, as with all issues, we will be reviewing what the requirements would be for the following year.

Mr. Chairperson: Did the honourable member for Gladstone (Mr. Rocan) have a question that he wants–[interjection] No? Okay.

Item 14.1. Administration and Finance (d) Manitoba Film Classification Board (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $156,200–pass; (2) Other Expenditures $284,800–pass.

Item 14.2. Culture, Heritage and Recreation Programs (a) Executive Administration (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $283,200–pass; (2) Other Expenditures $83,900–pass. 14.2. (b) Grants to Cultural Organizations $7,694,600.

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Ms. McGifford: I notice that it is in this subappropriation that deficit reduction appears, and I wanted to ask the minister a couple of questions about the deficit reduction. I think I understand from past years that this is a fund of money set aside to help arts groups or heritage groups which are in financial distress. This leads me to ask the minister if she could tell me anything about the work her department is doing to assist the symphony in their current financial distress.

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, the Winnipeg Symphony is part of our current deficit reduction program and continues to be, even though they have now experienced some additional difficulties. So we have had to this point at least two meetings with the symphony that I have attended, and I understand that the department has also attended further meetings. The Manitoba Arts Council has also been involved. The issues for the symphony are a deficit which they clearly speak about and a requirement to actually look at what the accurate number of that deficit is and then to look at how they will develop a business plan so that that deficit does not remain.

Some of the details of our discussion I have had with the current board, actually the board of trustees of the Winnipeg Symphony. There were four and I understand there are now three people who are basically acting as trustees, though the board continues to meet in committees. I am looking forward to being able to participate with them when they actually make their announcement about their long-term plans. But at the moment discussions have taken place, offers of assistance from the Manitoba Arts Council, from members of my department have been made, and I can say that the Board of Directors of the Winnipeg Symphony, in addition to the trustees, are really working very, very hard to come up with a comprehensive plan. The plan will include matters that relate to their future planning and their future financial stability which is really important for them.

Ms. McGifford: Is the additional difficulty that the minister mentioned the resignation of the conductor?

Mrs. Vodrey: No, it is not, although obviously the Winnipeg Symphony will have to look now at finding a new artistic director. Obviously the artistic vision comes also from the symphony board and the city basically are those who attend in conjunction with the artistic director. There should be a couple of years left where our current artistic director–has made a wonderful contribution to our city–remains here and the board is able to look, with the orchestra, at who the new artistic director will be.

Ms. McGifford: What then is the additional difficulty?

Mrs. Vodrey: Sorry, maybe I misspoke myself. They are working very hard. They did have a deficit last year for which we entered into a deficit reduction program. It appears this year that they will have a greater deficit which they will be required to manage. So the symphony has to look at how it is going to set itself on a sustainable fiscal footing and how they are going to develop in matters relating to that and board governance and so on.

Ms. McGifford: Is the arts stabilization fund that we discussed yesterday–or to change my question, how will this Arts Stabilization Fund–or will it indeed be helpful for the symphony in its current situation?

Mrs. Vodrey: This is the kind of issue which the arts stabilization fund should be able to assist with, and I gave the member yesterday a list of the kinds of areas which that stabilization fund would be looking to work with, but, at the moment, as we discussed yesterday, it is still in its conceptual stage while we are bringing all members onside and it is being driven, led basically by the private sector.

Ms. McGifford: I wonder if I could have a list of major agencies' operating grants.

Mrs. Vodrey: We will provide that to the member.

Ms. McGifford: I believe that the Manitoba Museum is one of the major operating agencies.

Mrs. Vodrey: Yes, that is correct.

Ms. McGifford: I wanted to ask the minister a question about its name because I believe it was two years ago when we had a bill before the House that changed the name of the Manitoba Museum of Man and Nature to the Manitoba Museum, and I believe we were told at that time that the museum's name would soon change because the signage was being changed. I have not seen any evidence that it has changed, and I wonder if it is going to be, or what is happening there.

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, the ability to change the name was passed in legislation, but the museum is currently going through a major strategic planning exercise. They want to consult with the committee during this process to look at, in fact, what the effect of changing the name in reality might be operationally. So they have not chosen yet to effect a change operationally.

Ms. McGifford: So if I was really curious about it, I should probably phone the director of the museum and speak to that person.

Mrs. Vodrey: Yes.

Ms. McGifford: The minister will be pleased to know that I did read Hansard today, and I did notice the increase of $875,000, which is a special grant, and I believe it is going to be managed by the Manitoba Arts Council to look after special needs of the arts community. That is how it was outlined in Hansard, and I wonder what these special needs are and how this money is going to be given out.

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Mrs. Vodrey: The Manitoba Arts Council in consultation with the arts groups would like to focus on issues, with these additional dollars, such as governance, marketing, new work which would be important in renewal for some of the arts groups, administration and new audience development.

Ms. McGifford: The minister spoke about the Manitoba Arts Council being in consultation with the community arts groups, and I wonder if she could tell me which community arts groups were consulted.

Mrs. Vodrey: I am informed that they consulted with all of their clients, that is all of the clients of the Manitoba Arts Council, and they did so discipline by discipline.

Ms. McGifford: So I am assuming by all of their clients, that would suggest to me all of those groups which would receive money on a year-by-year basis and obviously not each and every single artist who has ever got a grant from the Manitoba Arts Council.

Mrs. Vodrey: I am informed that it would in fact have included some individuals, though not every single individual but representative of individuals and disciplines.

Ms. McGifford: So then I am assuming groups like the Manitoba Theatre Centre, the Prairie Theatre Exchange, the symphony, the ballet, the Art Gallery, then individuals who are also representative of their particular art.

Mrs. Vodrey: Yes, that is correct.

Ms. McGifford: And these individuals and then these groups apparently agreed that this was a good way to spend this $875,000.

Mrs. Vodrey: Ultimately the plan was formed by the Manitoba Arts Council, but in formulating the plan, they attempted to take into consideration the information that came from their consultations and the priorities that have been outlined by the arts groups. The arts groups would not have known the details of the plan then of the Manitoba Arts Council, but that plan which was developed again in consultation but ultimately by the Arts Council.

Ms. McGifford: Are there any details that would be available to me other than the ones the minister has given to me? I am looking for something on paper.

Mrs. Vodrey: The Manitoba Arts Council is just in the process of putting together a package which will go out to all the arts groups. So when that package is available and sent out, then we will send it to the member.

Mr. Chairperson: 14.2. Culture, Heritage and Recreation Programs (b) Grants to Cultural Organizations $7,694,600–pass; (c) Manitoba Arts Council $7,317,300––pass. (d) Heritage Grants Advisory Council $580,000.

Ms. McGifford: I do not really have any questions. Well, I do have one quick question. My understanding is that the Heritage Grants are given out twice a year? There are two rounds?

Mrs. Vodrey: Yes, there are two rounds.

Ms. McGifford: I wonder if I could have a list then of the most recent grant assistance when they are available.

Mrs. Vodrey: Yes.

Mr. Chairperson: 14.2.(d) Heritage Grants Advisory Council $580,000–pass; (e) Arts Branch (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $610,300–pass. 2(e)(2) Other Expenditures $138,400.

Ms. McGifford: I wonder if the minister could explain to me the other operating increase.

Mrs. Vodrey: The member will find, I understand, throughout on the other operating line an increase which by and large reflects the desktop management increase.

Ms. McGifford: Then, to save time and energy, maybe the minister could tell me right now what the total cost of the desktop publishing project to her department is.

Mrs. Vodrey: The total is $909,700.

Ms. McGifford: I notice that one of the expected results reads as follows: an enhanced local, national and international profile of Manitoba arts and artists through the Pan Am Games, trade missions and other branch-supported initiatives. I am curious about the Pan Am Games aspect of this expected result, because it leads me to believe that some special efforts will be made to promote Manitoba arts and artists throughout the Pan Am Games. I wonder if the minister could give me some concrete information about that.

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Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, I am informed that we have provided consultative support to the organization. We have also provided advice to the festivals division, and our efforts are to profile and to help profile arts and culture both at The Forks and also in other venues.

Ms. McGifford: Will there be special displays of Manitoba art where people can purchase these products or these items, or is there going to be an effort to market Manitoba art?

Mrs. Vodrey: I am informed that there will be some sites where people will be able to purchase Manitoba art. The Manitoba craft guild has just set up a bus link between The Forks and the guild, and our position has not been to fund but rather to co-ordinate.

Ms. McGifford: I cannot remember whether it was last year or the year before that I believe it was the Manitoba Arts Council who sponsored a group of individuals who produced a manuscript entitled Cultural Equity in which they voiced their concerns about there not being cultural equity. I notice here that one of the Expected Results of the Arts Branch is to increase the participation of Franco, aboriginal and designated new immigrant communities in branch-sponsored activities, arts, cultural industries and I wonder how that is being done.

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, we do work with the various communities to try and assist them and their profile within their communities. Yesterday I referenced our assistance to the Cercle MoliP re, the Francophone community to assist them in celebrating their anniversary. I know the member was at the recent opening of the Robert Houle exhibition in the Pool of the Black Star, and there are several sites for his exhibits as a Manitoba aboriginal artist.

The department is also in partnership with the Native Affairs Secretariat and Industry, Trade and Tourism. We have provided $12,500 to the Canadian Plains Gallery to co-ordinate an aboriginal performing and a visual arts program for inclusion in the Canadian Pavilion in Brazil in 1998. That is just one example.

In addition, I am also informed that the Arts Branch works with the Citizenship division, and they are looking to find artists who have immigrated or have come here as refugees and to link those artists with our arts community.

Ms. McGifford: I note that the Pan Am Games start in Winnipeg, in Manitoba, roundabout the 20th of July, although I might have the specific date incorrect. This means that the summer festivals, the Fringe, the Folk Festival, the Jazz Festival–I know I am going to miss one if I start listing them, but our various festivals which are more or less spread over the summer are going to be kind of boxed in to the beginning of July.

I wonder if the minister has any concerns about the effect of this on these various summer festivals, because I know that the festivals need to have participants in order to balance the books. Even with many participants they sometimes do not make it, and I know that the department supports many of the festivals.

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, I guess we all hope that we will benefit from the Pan Am Games in general, both all of our artists, performing artists and visual artists, et cetera, but in terms of the festivals in specific, the festivals did want to still make the most of their opportunities, so they are working together in partnership. They are doing joint marketing, which I think is great. I think the partnership is really wonderful and helpful also. So they will be, I would expect, able to benefit as festivals and then also able to benefit when we have this really wonderful undertaking of the Pan American Games, as well.

Ms. McGifford: The minister spoke about a partnership among the various festivals. Could she give me any more details about this partnership? I wonder if her department, for example, has participated in assisting in the partnership and co-ordinating, or if her department has had a role.

Mrs. Vodrey: I am informed and actually have observed that these groups work very well together. My department is not involved. They have formed their own partnerships. They are doing things such as joint ads, and they are continuing their process of really looking to make the very most of this summer's opportunities.

Ms. McGifford: Just my last point on the Arts Branch then. I wonder if I could have copies of the grants assistance, and also I do want to ask a question about the Manitoba Film and Sound Development Corporation. The question is under the act. Is Manitoba Film and Sound responsible for delivering a report, an annual general report? If so, what is the most recent one, because I think I have not had one for some time?

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Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, this is the first year of operation of the new corporation, and they will be submitting an annual report. I am expecting that that annual report will be available by the fall.

Ms. McGifford: The minister did not respond in regard to the Grant Assistance, but I am assuming that her answer was yes.

Mrs. Vodrey: Yes.

Ms. McGifford: The act that created the Manitoba Film and Sound Development Corporation does require an annual report, is that correct?

Mrs. Vodrey: Yes, it does.

Ms. McGifford: Thank you.

Mr. Chairperson: 14.2. Culture, Heritage and Recreation Programs (e) Arts Branch (2) Other Expenditures $138,400–pass; (3) Grant Assistance $4,158,300–pass.

14.2.(f) Public Library Services (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $798,700.

Ms. McGifford: I want to ask some questions about libraries. First of all, I would also like to have a list of Grant Assistance, but I also wanted to ask the minister if her department has any intentions of reviewing and reconsidering and perhaps even rewriting The Public Libraries Act, which I note was I believe first created in 1987. I have been told by librarians that it is quite out of date because in 1987, of course, the public libraries had not achieved the same degree of technological development as they have now.

So my question is: is there a plan or are there plans to reconsider The Public Libraries Act?

Mrs. Vodrey: We do not have any plans at the moment to open the library act. It does not mean that we will not in the future. We have had a number of initiatives in relation to libraries, and we have not needed to open the act to accomplish those initiatives. It is not in our immediate plans or not in our plans of this year.

Ms. McGifford: I wonder if the minister could tell me something about the Public Libraries Advisory Board. I am interested in knowing if this board is meeting regularly and if the board has met with the minister at all and also who is chairing the board.

Mrs. Vodrey: The chair of the Public Libraries Advisory Board is Linda Pleskach from Selkirk, and she is in place in that position until September. She works in Selkirk. She is in place until September, and then each year in September the group has to determine who will be their chair for the next year, so they will determine this September if in fact it will be Linda or another member.

I am informed that they have met four times this year, but they do have numerous teleconferences because people are representatives from across the province and, yes, I have met with them. I have met with them several times.

Ms. McGifford: So it is the advisory board itself that determines the chair?

Mrs. Vodrey: Yes, that is correct.

Ms. McGifford: I wanted to refer the minister to an article in the Winnipeg Free Press, dated May 26, 1999, and this is really a question for information, because I do not really know what is being discussed, but it is in connection with the city making the decision to withdraw funding from the public library. I think it was $4 million. There was a conversation apparently with Councillor Garth Steek who says that the cuts to the library have been proposed because the province has not "come through" with its share of funding, and then it goes on to say because of the city's financial constraints.

I wonder if the minister could offer any information, because I would like to know.

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, I can tell the member that I have met with the committee who is proposing this expanded library and other facilities several times. They have also met with my department. For the province it is now the Economic Innovation and Technology Council, which is taking the lead provincial role on this expanded millennium centre of knowledge. The reasoning for that is that it has expanded itself really beyond the library. I mean, it is expanded itself into quite a technological plan, so it is again being looked at by EITC.

In relation to the comments of Councillor Steek, I am somewhat puzzled because the City of Winnipeg does make their own budgetary decisions. They make their budgetary decisions based on their own priorities, and so I would say to the city, if this was a priority for them, their money would have been on the table. Their money should have been on the table if it was their priority and that whatever was possible then to leverage from that money or to plan with that money, then obviously could have been accomplished by the committee, but he does know that the committee has been working with the province. I am sure he knows that and so the basis for those comments, I am not sure why he would have made those.

Mr. Chairperson: Item 14.2. Culture, Heritage and Recreation Programs (f) Public Library Services (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $798,700–pass; 2.(f)(2) Other Expenditures $718,500–pass; 2.(f)(3) Grant Assistance $4,390,000–pass.

14.2.(g) Historic Resources (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1,217,400.

Ms. McGifford: I have a couple of questions to ask about Historic Resources. I would like to begin by asking whether Historic Resources has any plan to have a provincial-wide meeting of all organizations involved in heritage, because my understanding was that a meeting had been planned for April. I cannot remember whether it was the 15th or the 12th, or perhaps I have the date incorrect, but I believe a meeting had been planned, and then I believe the meeting had been cancelled. My question is: was it ultimately held and if it was not, is there a plan to hold it?

Mrs. Vodrey: To my knowledge there is not a plan to have a province-wide meeting at the moment, but Historic Resources, I am told, has met with all of their clients this year, that they have a very good network that they work through, as well, with municipalities, and that this is the way that they are working with the Historic Resources community across the province, the heritage community.

Ms. McGifford: So then was the decision that rather than to meet as a group, Historical Resources chose to meet with individual groups?

Mrs. Vodrey: I am informed yes. I am informed everyone could not make it, necessarily, so they have met with all of their clients.

Ms. McGifford: Perhaps I could have copies of the grant assistance for community museum grants and community heritage grants, along with the other ones?

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Mrs. Vodrey: Yes, we will provide that.

Ms. McGifford: I wanted to bring up an issue raised in a publication called Heritage Now, which is a publication of the Manitoba Heritage Federation Inc., It is in an editorial by Chris Vogel. If I could quote from that editorial, the editorial is basically about the demolition of a heritage building in Souris. The writer says that he had been advised, and now I am quoting: by staff of the Manitoba Culture, Heritage and Citizenship that the building screening committee of the Heritage Council has already identified a representative sample of stations, that is, railway stations, that are to be designated provincially. The Souris station is not one of them and is, therefore, not to be designated by the province. Apparently they have done this exclusive selection with all other kinds of buildings. He goes on to protest this policy.

So I wanted to ask the minister if there is indeed a building screening committee.

Mrs. Vodrey: The committee that the member refers to is actually a committee of the Manitoba Heritage Council itself. That is a council of experts. They have, in fact, reviewed. They did an extensive railway study of 128 railway stations in a previous study. At the moment, the Manitoba Heritage Council did not recommend that the former CP station in Souris was of provincial heritage significance.

Ms. McGifford: I was more concerned whether there is a policy. My concern was not so much about this particular building but whether there is a policy, the policy referred to in the bit that I quoted, that names a number of buildings.

Mrs. Vodrey: If I understood the question correctly, it was is there a sort of maximum number of sites that might be designated by policy. No, there is not.

Ms. McGifford: So the author of this editorial's suggestion that there is a process where a number of buildings are selected–his expression is "exclusively selected"–is inaccurate?

Mrs. Vodrey: The Heritage Council would review in this case the stations, for instance, which may, in fact, be designated. They are very precise in their assessment in terms of allotting a weighted criterion as they go through their assessment. Based on that, very often they also have to compare one to another, I am told.

But they do a thorough assessment. They are experts in their field, and, ultimately, they recommend what would be of provincial significance. In this case, they did not recommend the former CP station in Souris.

Ms. McGifford: But whether a building is ultimately designated or not is a judgment made on the merits of that building. There is not a predetermination that we will preserve 10 railways and six churches, or whatever.

Mrs. Vodrey: Yes, the member is correct. I guess that is what I have been trying to say, is that there is not a specific number that they operate by in terms of policy that says there can only be four or five, or whatever. Each is assessed based on its own merits. The evaluation is on criteria such as the age of the building, the architectural interest, the historical interest, and then there is an assessment made as to whether that building meets the criteria and would be recommended.

Ms. McGifford: There is a list, then, of published criteria?

Mrs. Vodrey: What I am informed is that they do not specifically publish it as criteria, but they do publish it or have available what to look for in a building if you were to be assessing yourself as to should this building be brought forward for consideration under the provincial designation.

Ms. McGifford: I wonder, then, if I might have a copy of that information.

Mrs. Vodrey: Yes, the member can have a copy. She might be interested in what I have in front of me, which is basically just off the Internet, and off the Internet it is titled: What has been commemorated by the province as being of heritage significance. Then it does talk about some of the criteria.

Ms. McGifford: Thank you, I would appreciate that copy.

I just have one other question. It actually grows out of the news today in which I heard that historic buildings on Princess Street are once again under discussion. I wonder if the minister has been consulted about these buildings or whether her department has been consulted, whether there is ongoing participation in the preservation of these buildings.

Mrs. Vodrey: Yes, we are a part of that committee. We actually initiated a trilevel committee. It is being chaired by Bill Neville. We are working together with the City of Winnipeg and also with Parks Canada, who has the responsibility federally to look at these historic buildings and historic areas.

Mr. Chairperson: 14.2. Culture, Heritage and Recreation Programs (g) Historic Resources (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1,217,400–pass; (2) Other Expenditures $382,500–pass; (3) Grant Assistance $869,300–pass;

14.2.(h) Recreation and Wellness Promotion (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $484,900.

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Ms. McGifford: I do not really have any questions, but I would once again like to have the list of Grant Assistance.

Mrs. Vodrey: Yes, that is fine. I am happy to provide that.

Mr. Chairperson: 14.2.(h) Recreation and Wellness Promotion (1) Salaries and Employee benefits $484,900–pass; (2) Other Expenditures $237,000–pass; (3) Grants Assistance $671,900–pass.

14.2.(j) Regional Services (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $941,800.

Ms. McGifford: Again, I would like to have Grant Assistance.

Mrs. Vodrey: Yes, we will provide that.

Mr. Chairperson: 14.2.(j)(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $941,800–pass; (2) Other Expenditures $326,900–pass; (3) Grant Assistance $35,100–pass.

14.2.(k) Manitoba Millennium Office (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $234,500.

Ms. McGifford: This is of course the first year I think that the Manitoba Millennium Office has been part of the department. Perhaps it was last year, because I see that there are Estimates of expenditure but of course nothing was spent. They are zero.

I wonder what the minister's plans are. Will the Millennium be in operation for this year and next year or three years? What are the plans? Maybe I will leave it at that.

Mrs. Vodrey: I would just like to take a moment to introduce the staff member who has joined us at the table. This is Jill Logan [phonetic], and she is the director of the Manitoba Millennium Office. The Manitoba Millennium Office is expected to be operational during this fiscal year, which would take us through 2000; and the next fiscal year, which would take us through 2001.

Our plan is recognizing that as communities or individuals or groups look at their millennium projects and funding is required, they will probably require perhaps some of that this year in preparation, 1999, most of it in the year 2000, but some may be required to be paid out in the first months of 2001. The Manitoba Millennium Office will be operational until all of that is complete.

Ms. McGifford: The minister's recent announcement on behalf of her government I believe was to provide $10 million for Manitoba Millennium programs. I wonder if the minister could tell me where that appears in the budget. It is obviously not in here.

Mrs. Vodrey: I would like to table basically a page of this budgetary initiative. It actually appears in appropriation 27.6, called the Millennium Fund, in the Minister of Finance's Estimates, but if it is possible for us to table it and have it approved here, I think the questioning is most relevant here in Culture Estimates.

Mr. Chairperson: I am told that you can pass this out all right, but we cannot approve it. It is a separate appropriation on the list here. You understand? [interjection]

Order, please. We cannot pass this, but we can discuss it if that is the will of the committee. Is it the will of the committee to discuss this particular portion, Millennium Fund?

Ms. McGifford: Well, Mr. Chair, having just received this page, I am not in a position to discuss it. I would be happy to attend the Estimates of the Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson) and discuss it during that time. Okay?

Mr. Chairperson: As it is the will of the committee.

Mrs. Vodrey: Yes, that is fine. Our discussions were simply to try and have this relevant. My understanding was that it was to be discussed between House leaders, but perhaps in the busyness of the busy House it was not done, so we are certainly open to considering it at whatever the committee's direction is.

Mr. Chairperson: Item 14.2.(k) Manitoba Millennium Office (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $234,500–pass; (2) Other Expenditures $70,000–pass.

Resolution 14.2: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $32,244,500 for Culture, Heritage and Citizenship, Culture, Heritage and Recreation Programs for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 2000.

Item 3. Information Resources (a) Client Services (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $2,214,700.

Ms. McGifford: I just have a general question here. I wanted to ask the minister if it is this department that was responsible for the spring's health ads.

Mrs. Vodrey: I would just like to take a moment to reintroduce Cindy Stevens, again, who is the Executive Director of Information Resources.

I can tell the member that the Department of Health is responsible for those ads. It is also contained in their budget, but our responsibility was to assist in the producing of the ad.

Ms. McGifford: So this particular department assists different ministries in producing their materials for the media.

Mrs. Vodrey: Yes, that is correct. We are the technical support.

Ms. McGifford: I think it was last year, maybe the year before, that I spoke to somebody, I believe from Client Services, I think it was Dwight MacAulay, about possibly having in Question Period an ASL interpreter. I am sure the minister appreciates that as the MLA for the constituency of Osborne which includes the Centre for the Deaf, I do get calls from people who would like to be able to follow what is happening in Question Period, and they cannot. I wonder if this has been considered, or if I need to pursue the matter a little bit further, or whether there is any information that the minister has on this initiative.

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, I understand that this issue was referred to the Legislative Assembly review, which is the all-party committee, chaired by the Speaker, and we have not had any direction back yet from that committee.

Ms. McGifford: So I should take the matter up with the members of my caucus who are on that committee then?

Mrs. Vodrey: Yes, that is correct.

Mr. Chairperson: Item 14.3. Information Resources (a) Client Services (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $2,214,700–pass; (2) Other Expenditures $282,600–pass; (3) Public Sector Advertising $2,384,100–pass; (4) Less: Recoverable from other appropriations ($2,859,500)–pass. 14.3.(b).

Ms. McGifford: Client Services.

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Mr. Chairperson: That was Client Services. We are on Business Services now, but I am told that we would like now to go to–

Mrs. Vodrey: Let us do Business Services, if you do not mind.

Mr. Chairperson: Business Services. Okay. 14.3.(b) Business Services (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits.

Ms. McGifford: I do have a question. I notice that under professional and technical staff, although the numbers of staff has stayed the same, there is a jump of approximately $90,000 in salary, and I wonder what the explanation is for that.

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, these are the salary dollars added for the Internet team which I mentioned yesterday in my opening remarks.

Mr. Chairperson: 14.3.(b)(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1,137,800–pass; (2) Other Expenditures $996,400–pass; (3) Less: Recoverable from other appropriations ($260,300)–pass.

14.3. (c) Translation Services (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1,269,100.

Ms. McGifford: I just wanted to ask the minister if Translation Services is providing any supports for the Pan Am Games? I was thinking particularly of Spanish translation, or does it deal almost exclusively with English-French translation?

Mrs. Vodrey: I would like to introduce Sue Bishop, who is the Executive Director of Provincial Services, to the table.

I am informed that Translation Services is supporting the Pan Am Games by making its interpreter training facilities available to the Pan Am Games Society, and the society has sent interpreter trainees on several occasions for half-day sessions, but we are not providing interpreters. If the Pan Am wants interpreters, they would have to then make that contract with the interpreters. It is not through my department that the interpreters are provided.

Ms. McGifford: I wonder if the minister could tell me why the numbers of staff have been increased by four this year.

Mrs. Vodrey: During this budgetary process we had four staff approved to assist in the area of Education and Training, additional translator positions to deal with a very substantial workload for the Department of Education and Training.

Mr. Chairperson: Item 14.3. Information Resources (c)Translation Services (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1,269,100–pass; (2) Other Expenditures $480,700–pass; (3) Less: Recoverable from other appropriations ($269,700)–pass.

14.3.(d) Provincial Archives (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $2,062,100–pass; (2) Other Expenditures $1,640,600–pass.

14.3.(e) Legislative Library (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $742,800–pass; (2) Other Expenditures $646,100–pass;

Resolution 14.3: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $10,467,500 for Culture, Heritage and Citizenship, Information Resources, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 2000.

Mrs. Vodrey: I wonder if it is the will of the committee to step out of order of the Estimates book and to consider Capital Grants, which is appropriation 14.5., for consideration now while the Arts Branch is here and may be able to provide information.

Mr. Chairperson: This is agreed? [agreed]

Item 14.5. Capital Grants (a) Cultural Organizations.

Ms. McGifford: As I have been asking all afternoon, I would like to have copies of the grants for these particular lines. I wonder if the minister could explain to me the significant increase in the budget line for 1999-2000 over 1998-99.

Mrs. Vodrey: The increase is as a result of three initiatives which again I spoke about yesterday. There is $1 million to the Mennonite College Federation. There is $1 million to the Betel Heritage centre, and there is $500,000 to the Commonwealth Air Training Plan Museum.

Ms. McGifford: I notice that in 1997-98, $2,104,700 was given out through Community Places, and I think what the estimate is here for 1998-99, and also '99-2000, approximately $2.5 million, so that all the money was not given out. I think about $400,000 was not given out. I wonder what happens to money which has not been accessed but has been designated for this program.

Mrs. Vodrey: In the Community Places line, we pay according to the invoices as they are received, so sometimes there is somewhat of a lag.

Ms. McGifford: So is all the money always given out?

Mrs. Vodrey: I meant to say every penny–well, maybe not every penny, but the program is very well subscribed, but because we pay out on invoice, sometimes there may be a lag, in which case it may not all be used and some may lapse. But it generally is all subscribed and paid out.

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Ms. McGifford: I understood the minister's explanation of the lag. So then the minister is assuring me that there really is not money left over at the end, wherever we may eventually take the end to be, so that, in fact, the money is accessed and there is no place for it to go, because there is no money to go.

Mrs. Vodrey: Yes, generally, the money is all spent. Occasionally there may be a project which has been approved which for some reason the community is unable to go ahead with. That happens very rarely. Generally the money is all spent.

Ms. McGifford: I wonder if the minister could explain to me Recoverable from Capital Initiatives.

Mrs. Vodrey: That is transferable from the Department of Finance. It is one time only, and it is the grants that we spoke about in terms of those capital initiatives.

Ms. McGifford: The minister said at the beginning that this was the last time that she would be doing Estimates, so it is the last time we will be sitting down at an Estimates table together, so I would like to thank her for her work and for her answers and thank her staff, as well.

Mrs. Vodrey: Thank you very much. I appreciate the member's comments. I also would want to comment on the sincere interest in a number of initiatives and issues which I see she has brought forward really on behalf of people in Manitoba. That is very much appreciated, so thank you, too.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Faurschou): Item 14.5. Capital Grants (a) Cultural Organizations $4,380,900–pass; (b) Heritage Buildings $300,000–pass; (c) Community Places Program $2,525,000–pass; (d) Less: Recoverable from Capital Initiatives ($2,500,000)–pass.

Resolution 14.5: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $4,705,900 for Culture, Heritage and Citizenship, Capital Grants, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 2000.

Item 14.6. Amortization of Capital Assets $560,900–pass.

Resolution 14.6: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $560,900 for Culture, Heritage and Citizenship, Amortization of Capital Assets, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 2000.

14.4. Citizenship and Multiculturalism (a) Citizenship (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1,677,100.

An Honourable Member: On the salaries line, George? On the salaries line?

Mr. George Hickes (Point Douglas): Not really on the salaries line. We can pass that if you want.

Mr. Chairperson: Item 14.4.(a)(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1,677,100–pass. (2) Other Expenditures $846,600.

Mr. Hickes: I just wanted to put some comments on record first, then I have some general questions. It is sort of the comments that I have been making over the years. I hear over and over from constituents and concerned citizens that have made Canada their home, especially Manitoba, which we should all be very proud that they have chosen our province, a lot of the issues that are raised to my attention pertain to the federal government.

I hear a lot of times that for immigration to be successful in Manitoba and to be open to all citizens throughout the world, we have to do something with the head tax, that $975 and the $500 processing fee. For a lot of people from poor countries or even Third World countries, it is extremely difficult, because a lot of times you are talking about a whole year's salary for individuals. If they have families, you are talking about two or three years salaries.

One of the questions I will be asking the minister a little later is if she has consulted with her federal counterpart and, hopefully, has stressed the disagreement of citizens of Manitoba to that horrible head tax and the processing fee that is imposed on us by the federal government.

The other thing I wanted to raise was the importance of immigration. We all understand it stimulates our economy. People come here, they take training and education, they purchase homes and buy groceries and buy clothes. So it only does nothing but positive for our province. I would like to see us increase the opportunity of individuals to come to our wonderful province, where a lot of people that have come from other countries have benefited greatly but we as citizens have benefited the most from the individual's contributions and what they have given to our province and what they have shared with us as citizens of the province.

So I would encourage that we extend our hand out and increase immigration to Manitoba because, like I mentioned earlier, it only makes us a better province. We are a diverse province, with many cultural groups and different ethnic origins in the province. I firmly believe that it makes each one of us a better person when we have a better understanding of other cultures and other ethnic groups that come from other parts of the world. If I only knew about Inuit people, I do not think I would be the person I am today, because that is the only thing I would know. I thank all the people who have come to Manitoba to make their homes.

Also, when we extend our hand out to people to our province, I think it is important that we have an accreditation program that would recognize and appreciate the foreign credentials that people bring with them. If there is a way of encouraging that, a way of looking at the certificates, diplomas, and compare them to what is required in Manitoba and Canada and maybe look at recognizing all or part of one's diploma or credentials and maybe set up individualized programs for groups, where instead of four years of university, they might already have qualifications that meet two, and they might only have to study for two more years to get their degrees or doctorates or whatever is required, instead of trying to go through the whole four years again, or in some cases it might only be one year.

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I say that knowing that it could work very well. The program that I was involved with for many years was called New Careers Program. That was a program that was designed for individuals who had needs, and so any program could be developed to meet the needs of individuals. When I say that, I think it would benefit us as governments and as a province if we would put dollars in place to assist individuals to attain their accreditation and not have to try and work a full-time job, study, raise a family, all at the same time. I think if we had some kind of fund available for individuals to be paid or get a training allowance while they are studying, which would assist the families, and then upon successful graduation, there could be an avenue of cost recovery or some form of forgivable grants or loans if a person accepted employment in a high-needs area.

We always hear at great length the importance and the shortage of skilled individuals in northern Manitoba and in rural communities, and if a person upon successful graduation was willing to relocate for whatever the agreeable time is, whether it is three years, five years, two years, whatever is agreeable, all or a portion of the education costs could be forgivable, because we spend a lot of dollars trying to recruit offshore for skill shortage areas, and this way I think we would be helping individuals who choose Manitoba to be their home and also helping ourselves at the same time.

Another important issue that I was really pleased to see in this budget line was the increase in English as a Second Language. There is a tremendous increase from 1.172 to 3.472. That is a great increase. I am really happy to see that. I just hope that it is not just transfer of dollars from the federal government to the province that is already doing the training for English as a Second Language. I hope it is new money and new opportunities for people that have chosen Manitoba as their new home.

The other area that I think is crucial for all of us is to introduce more access to our children through history in our schools and teach the different ethnic groups that are here, so hopefully our students have a better understanding and a better appreciation on why we are different. There is nothing wrong to be different. I think it should be accepted. But I think a lot of that racism and discrimination is brought on by individuals that do not really understand or have not taken the time or have not had the opportunity to understand why we are all different from one another. It does not make us bad because we are different, but to understand and to appreciate our differences, I feel it is very important that it be taught in our schools.

I hear individuals say it should be taught at home. Well, not all parents do that. If we want to change the actions in the future, I think it has to come from our schools. That is our education system. Yes, I accept that there is a role and a responsibility of parents in the home, but there are some parents that do not fully accept that responsibility. We all know that. So I think it is incumbent on us as individuals whenever we get the chance to speak, we should try and express the importance of being different and that it is okay to be different.

We are a very diverse province, and we have many different cultures. I know a lot of individuals that really appreciate the different cultures and have no problems at all. When I say that, I think we as a province need to really look at what are we doing as governments and as individuals to try and help people around the world that are in need. Sometimes it comes down to dollars and cents, and I hope that we will never consider only the finances of an individual for immigration.

That is why I am so set against the $975 head tax and the $500 processing fee, because it is so unfair to individuals, that all they want is a new start, a new way of life. They have heard so much, and some have relatives right here in Canada and in Manitoba and wish to join or some families that are here to bring their family members over, and they are so willing to come over. The individuals that are here have really caused no problems and have contributed greatly to the province, yet these kinds of barriers are put in place for people that are wanting to make Manitoba their home. I strongly believe that it is so unfair.

The constituency I represent is very diverse, and I am very fortunate that I meet individuals from all over the world. They really appreciate the opportunity that they have been given here in Manitoba and are very proud to be Canadians. They talk about the importance of their grandchildren and their brothers and sisters and their aunts and uncles, and they say if only they could be given the chance they were given. That is why I always raise that, because it is a tremendous hardship for people I know that would do very well, that would make a great contribution to our province.

When I say that, we turn on the news every night and you see what is happening in Kosovo. Even Canada is bringing over people from Kosovo and extending a helping hand, and I hope we as a province are extending that same helping hand. I hope we are doing something to assist and to accommodate some of the individuals from that country who really need assistance from friendly countries and provinces throughout the world.

I saw on TV there was an organization, I think it was bringing in 85 or 90 families from Kosovo. I think that is great, but I think we as a government should really be doing something, and I hope we are. I have not heard, but I hope we are doing something to help people who are in crisis right now. In a lot of cases, it will be short-term help, because a lot of them, once everything is settled, wish to return back home, but you will have individuals who will adjust and adapt to our country and our province and will probably wish to remain here. You are going to have both sides.

So I do not know if we are doing anything as a province, but I hope we are. If we are not, I hope we will be. I think that is so crucial. If we were in trouble, I am sure we would appreciate help from other countries and other provinces.

Just for a small example, when we had the great flood, the army came in from all over the country, and they came in to help. I was not even affected, but I appreciated to see what was happening for the individuals who were affected by the flood, and I think that the same thought should be given to the individuals from Kosovo who really need help from everyone today.

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Another issue that I will be asking is the whole Manitoba Intercultural Council which you know was made up of groups from all walks of life here. There were individuals from the Chinese community, the Philippine community, the black community and on and on and on. They had an important role, I feel anyway, when they gave directions to governments. It was a hands-off organization that gave advice to the governments. I am not sure exactly what is in place now, but that was scrapped a couple of years ago. I do not know if there is any consideration of reinstating it or reinstating another organization, or if there is already one in place that accommodates all the various diverse groups that I just mentioned.

The other issue that I will be asking questions on is appointments of government boards. Hopefully, the minister is encouraging her government, when appointments come up that are government appointments, to reflect the make-up of all of Manitoba and to ensure that we have individuals from the black community, from the Philippine community, Chinese community, aboriginal community, to really, really encourage the government, in all cases, to try and appoint a true make-up of the province.

I know for years, for example, the Manitoba Hydro board did not have one aboriginal person represented on their board. The power came right from northern Manitoba, of which I am very familiar because that is where I grew up, not totally grew up, I hope I never totally grow up, but that is where I am from. But I see now they have George Campbell on the board, which to me I think it is a giant leap forward. He is not the same political stripe I am, but he is a very fine individual, and I am sure he represents the aboriginal community very well on the board. I think that it is crucial for that to happen and for the different groups to see it happen. That way you have different voices and different opinions. So I think that will be crucial.

So I would just like to, first of all, ask the minister, I know that you have written a letter to federal Immigration minister. Have you received a response, or is there anything happening to try and eliminate or ask to or whatever we can do to eliminate that horrible $975 head tax and the $500 processing fee?

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, this is a point on which we both have taken a similar position. As the member references, yes, I have written to the federal minister on specifically this point. Actually, I also pointed out to him, when I met with her fairly recently, I think it was in my June meeting or my meeting following June, I also wanted to make clear that we had passed an all-party resolution about our concern about any taxes, any of the taxation that the federal government had put in place that may in any way discourage immigration or create a hardship for family reunification and immigration, new immigrants, discourage immigration or refugees.

Our position has been made very clear to the federal government on this issue, again by letter, in face-to-face meetings and in informing her of the all-party resolution which was passed I believe last spring in the Legislature which asked the federal government to examine all taxes and to review all taxes which may in fact act as a discouragement. To date, I do not have any positive reaction back. The federal minister has accepted that we have concerns. She has accepted the information. I have really tried hard to put the point across by saying Manitoba really wants to encourage immigration and we want to encourage settlement services so that those people who immigrate here stay here, so we are not just looking at increasing our immigration numbers to have those people move away to Vancouver or Toronto, and that basically our province is extremely friendly towards any policies which would assist in the area of immigration.

So in that way I would say it is unfortunate that we have yet to have any positive reaction back, any positive assessment and perhaps she has been unable to influence her Minister of Finance in the preparation of the budget. I would say, just on the positive side, that though we have been unable to deal with the tax side, I believe that the federal government has in fact understood Manitoba's very proactive and strong desire to increase immigration to our province and to maintain those people who do immigrate here. I know as the questioning goes on, we will probably talk about things such as the provincial nominee program, as well as others, and our participation in terms of refugees and particularly the extra numbers of refugees which we are wanting to assist from the very terrible war-torn area of Kosovo right now.

So the short answer is nothing positive back, but we will continue to press that point with the federal government.

Mr. Hickes: Do you have a meeting scheduled with the federal minister in the near future?

Mrs. Vodrey: Not in the near future. What is interesting with this part of my portfolio is that there is not generally such a meeting as a federal-provincial-territorial meeting of ministers responsible for immigration, which in most other ministerial responsibilities there is. Because each province has its own view on how it would like to encourage immigration or whether it does not want to encourage immigration, the federal minister generally does not convene a meeting. There was only one meeting, which I told the member I attended last year which took place in Montreal. Other than that, the federal minister has in fact visited Manitoba twice recently, once in June and then once when she was looking at her responsibilities in terms of introducing a new act. So not a formal meeting. It is however possible should there be a series of issues which we need to discuss. I can say that we do have in fact a good response from her if we wish to have a meeting but it is generally bilateral, our province and the federal government.

Mr. Hickes: I would just like to ask the minister, a while back there was a recruiting process to recruit 200 garment workers, if I remember correctly. How successful was that? Was that accomplished?

Mrs. Vodrey: Yes, that was an initiative that took place several years ago. The time frame was completed in 1996–am I correct? I beg your pardon, processed in 1996, completed in 1997. We were able to recruit 157 sewing machine workers.

Mr. Hickes: I am happy to hear that. I think those are the kinds of things that we have to do as a province is to try and encourage individuals to come to our province.

I would like to just move on to the increase in English second language. There is a huge increase, which I am not against. I am happy to see it. Is that provincial dollars, or was that transfer of federal funds to the province?

Mrs. Vodrey: This increase does in fact reflect the devolution of the settlement services from the federal government to the province. That devolution has now been completed. It does deal with adult ESL services, settlement services in general. It is our intention, with the result of that devolution, then, to in fact have a more responsive system for people who are immigrating or who are here as refugees.

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Mr. Hickes: Those programs were already being delivered, but under federal dollars. Is there any increase in new positions for students to take the opportunity of English second language. Is there an increase in classes or students or anything, or does that pretty well stay the same?

Mrs. Vodrey: I am informed that the agencies or service groups which delivered the services have in fact had an opportunity to do an assessment of what was really required. So the answer to the question is that there may be some change in the configuration as the groups now looked at a more co-ordinated effort, those groups that were funded to deliver this service, so that they can look and see if there was perhaps a greater need at the medium level, not necessarily the introduction level or at a level in relation to, I guess, work experience, as well. It is now being co-ordinated through the province.

So are there actually more students? I am honestly not sure of that, but I think that what it would be reasonable to say is that the focus of the training is now better co-ordinated to look at what is required.

Mr. Hickes: So it is not new dollars that are coming available to individuals who require those services. It is just a transfer of dollars that were existing already but under the federal jurisdiction, that were transferred to the province. Is that correct?

Mrs. Vodrey: By and large, yes. The increase is in fact a reflection of the devolution of dollars paid by the federal government now administered by the province, though I know the member knows we do have provincial dollars in that service area as well.

Mr. Hickes: When new programs or new initiatives will be undertaken, from what I heard, what the minister was saying, will there be consultation with the communities to see the needs? Will it be government programs just given out or offered to people? Will there be consultation with the organizations and the groups that will be affected to get their recommendations and input from the communities that will need these services?

Mrs. Vodrey: When the devolution was being actually operationalized, in January my department had very broad-based consultation both with the immigrant communities and also with the service deliverers. Through that consultation, information was provided to the organizations and individuals about the meaning of the devolution, about the criterion which was going to be used for the service delivery so that groups who were service deliverers then would have the opportunity to know what that criterion was and then begin to look at tailoring their programs based on what the need was determined.

Mr. Hickes: In what way was the information gathered from the immigrant communities, through what communications? Was it groups or was it meeting with various ethnic organizations? How was this accomplished?

Mrs. Vodrey: First of all, there were letters to groups informing them. Then there were meetings held. Then finally we wrote to all of the groups who do programming. We gave them the guidelines for program delivery and encouraged them to then communicate with the department regarding proposals that they would have and want to put forward.

Mr. Hickes: I would like to touch on accreditation. Is there a program in place now dealing with individuals that come to Manitoba that have certification or diplomas? Is there any accreditation in place now to view a person's credentials and see if they apply?

Mrs. Vodrey: We do have a credentials assessment service at the moment.

Mr. Hickes: That credentials assessment, when that is taking place, does it compare credentials from other countries like foreign credentials to Manitoba standards? If so, how does it determine whether one meets our standards or not?

Mrs. Vodrey: I know the member knows that this is a complex process because it involves very often professional organizations, it involves the universities or other post-secondary training institutions. The program of credentials assessment facilitates the credentials assessment and the recognition process between the applicants and the professional licensing association or government department or academic institution. So our role is to assist the immigrant to bring together the appropriate documentation so that documentation can then be considered by the appropriate certifying agency. So we cannot say even through this process that a person is licensed to do certain work, but we can help them bring the documentation together, and then we also provide them with records which when assessed are able to say that their qualifications are an equivalent of a certain qualification here so that it can be then assessed by employers, for instance.

Mr. Hickes: If an individual that had that letter was applying to the province, would that letter carry any weight to get employment, if it is an equivalent to and if a person was applying for a position, say within government? Is it recognized by the province?

Mrs. Vodrey: My understanding of this then record, which the person would have some equivalency, again it would not be an equivalency which provides a licence, but it might be an equivalency, for instance, assessing the courses that a person had taken in their place of origin and being able to provide some assessment that this might be a Grade 12 equivalent. So it does not provide a certificate of Grade 12 equivalency, but it does provide basically a translation of the record into what that would be equivalent to. So again it is not the Grade 12 equivalency test, but it does basically translate the record for the purposes of employment so the employer could assess it.

Mr. Hickes: When that assessment is done, say, for example, if it is equivalent to say a university course, when it says equivalent to, if a person was applying for a position, say, in the Manitoba government, would the Manitoba government accept that as compared to an individual that has a degree from the University of Manitoba, per se, if they have a letter saying the equivalent to?

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Mrs. Vodrey: It would be my understanding that it would be taken into consideration by a potential employer. It does not bestow a degree, but it does quantify, classify or describe the knowledge base that the individual brings. That seems to be one of the difficulties that when it is an unknown qualification, if there is some way to say the meaning of this qualification is that, then the knowledge base is described, whatever that may be. Now, I guess if it is a professional organization who requires a professional certification, then they would have to assess if that was equal to them.

But if they were applying for a job which did not have a professional designation or certification, for instance you did not have to be a dentist, but you were planning to work as part of a policy department, for instance, and we could identify your knowledge base as being significant policy experience and educational experience in agriculture, for instance, then that descriptor would assist the employer as the employer determining whether or not this person might meet the requirements to do the kind of work that they would like to do.

So the distinction is a fine one. It is an important one for the governing bodies of, for instance, a university or professional organization that we do not confer a degree or a professional entitlement, but we do describe a knowledge base, and if that is what is required by an employer, then, yes, it certainly should be considered and I would think would be very helpful.

Mr. Hickes: For example, if an individual walked into an interview with the government of Manitoba, Family Services, and if they had a letter stating that they had the education equivalent to, say, a B.A. in social work, and the government was looking for social workers for their department, how serious would that equivalent two letters be taken into consideration by the Province of Manitoba?

Mrs. Vodrey: I understand where the member is going. Unfortunately, we are getting really hypothetical in a specific type of case, and I am hesitant to say something because I am concerned that someone may then feel my comments are misread as an entitlement.

In a very general sense, if someone said this is the kind of knowledge base required which might sometimes be found in a Bachelor of Social Work, a Bachelor of Human Ecology, a Bachelor of Education or other related training, and that is often the way the job requirements are listed, the person then may be able to present their knowledge-based qualification and see if it is to be considered, and it probably would be considered among other things.

If, however, and, again, very hypothetically, in a general sense, the requirement was very specific to a Bachelor of Social Work, the person then would have to take the description of their knowledge-based accomplishments to the university, to the Faculty of Social Work, and have the Faculty of Social Work assess whether or not this was an equivalent to a Bachelor of Social Work.

So it would very much depend upon how the job was listed. I often see Bachelor of Social Work, Bachelor of Human Ecology, Bachelor of Education or other related training, and that would be a good opportunity to use what we are able to provide. But if it is a specific degree, it would require the university to then say that this was an equivalent degree.

Mr. Hickes: That is exactly the direction I was going, because the obvious next step is has the government discussed with universities and colleges to try and work out something that is agreeable and may be an upgrading course or some program that would ensure or hopefully prepare the individual to, say, challenge the Province of Manitoba examination.

For example, any individual within the last 10 years, and I am not just talking about only university credentials, I am talking about like also college, where for example in the trades area, if you have worked five years in any given trade within the last 10 years, you can challenge the journeyperson status. You could challenge it. A lot of individuals, what they do, what we have done in the past is we have designed specific courses to help an individual to understand and to grasp the theory, because they already have the practical experience and the practical knowledge, but they need the theory part of it. Quite a few have been very successful in getting their trades papers that way, because they have already put in their time, they have put in their hours, and they are very skilled but, for whatever reason, they never had the opportunity to write for their trades papers. Could this be a further process in helping individuals from other countries to obtain accreditation or trade certification to ensure hopefully employment opportunities in their new home country?

Mrs. Vodrey: That has been part of the ongoing work which has been done by this committee, by my department to actually work with the universities, to work with the community college, all post-secondary institutions and also the professional organizations. You have referenced some of the apprenticeship groups who have in fact been more amenable to assess prior learning experiences. With that there has been some progress. I understand through the Department of Education, and I do not want to speak for them because I do not know the details of it, but they are doing a prior learning assessment centre as well. I have to say that to my knowledge, with the professional organizations it has really been kind of slow going.

Mr. Hickes: One of the reasons I raised it is because I hope you, as the minister for immigration, would consult your colleague the Minister of Education and hopefully encourage or try to work out something that is agreeable to encourage accreditation for individuals from other countries. That is why I wanted to raise it. I hope you will talk to your colleague and encourage and maybe meet or hopefully try and find some way of working it out to get accreditation.

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I want to move to the newcomers program. You have heard of that, the newcomers program. You were partially funding it through Family Services. It was dealing with single-parent families that were training to help with resumes and find employment. Will that funding continue from your office?

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, I understand that their past proposals were being assessed by not only my department but by Education and by Family Services, where I understand there was not a successful outcome. So I am informed that they have now put forward a new proposal which has just come into my department recently, so I do not have any information about how that assessment is going, other than to say obviously whatever the concerns were they have attempted to address through a new proposal.

Mr. Hickes: From my past experience and looking at the program, I dropped in quite a few times and I found it to be a very successful program. It got a lot of the families who were having a hard time finding employment were able to obtain education and a lot of them went on to employment. If I remember correctly, their success rate was somewhere from 75 percent to 80-some percent where individuals once they obtained the training found employment. There was a very, very low cost. I do not think it was even $100,000 for the whole year. I hope when you look at it, I would encourage you to hopefully give it successful assistance because if the families had to go on other provincial assistance I think it would cost us a lot more.

As you know, I do not have to explain this to you, you are a former Minister of Education, it seems to always work where parents obtain or try to obtain education opportunities, the commitment that is there and the strive for success usually filters down to the children as good examples. So I think any education opportunity that adults undertake, I believe it benefits the whole family, not just the individual.

I just wanted to touch on Kosovo. Are we assisting in any fashion to try and help the individuals who are brought over to Canada?

Mrs. Vodrey: We have been involved really from the very beginning of the international plea to look at the evacuation of refugees. I do not know if the member wants me to go through all of the details. Certainly if you would like to, I would be happy to have you for a briefing in my office about how this works. We have been working with the federal government. I understand we were having daily conference calls, and still are, with the federal government. At the moment, we are accepting–now if I read this right–our usual complement of refugees. In addition to our usual complement, we are accepting 350 people who are refugees plus 80 in addition to that for family reunification. So the important point to make is that by assisting in the humanitarian effort for people from Kosovo, we are also recognizing that there are conflicts in other places in the world where there are refugees and we have maintained our commitment to our usual complement of refugees and, in addition, with the Kosovars.

We are also working with the federal government. You will see over the next few days, we would like to have more private sponsors come forward to assist. We recognize the importance of the cultural community, emotional support and social support for the community.

So we are working with all of these sponsorship groups and will continue to do that.

Mr. Hickes: I guess this will be my final question. How much involvement does your department have with the Pan Am Games to ensure that we have the true representation of Manitobans on the Pan Am board, and also for employment opportunities when they arise pertaining to the Pan Am Games?

Mrs. Vodrey: I understand that one of the staff of the Citizenship Division is a volunteer on the committee, but, by and large, the Pan Am Games operate as a Pan Am Society. So we are certainly available and would be willing to assist in any way that we can.

Mr. Hickes: I just wanted to state that I appreciate your comments, and I really appreciated these and previous Estimates that we have undertaken. I wish you all the best in your new career because this will be our last Estimates together. Thank you very much and to all your staff.

Mrs. Vodrey: Being mindful of time, I would just like to say to the member, thank you very much. I also have appreciated his sincere interest in people. Thank you.

Mr. Chairperson: Item 14.4. Citizenship and Multiculturalism (a) Citizenship (2) Other Expenditures $846,600–pass; (3) Financial Assistance and Grants $4,759,100–pass.

14.4.(b) Multiculturalism Secretariat (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $97,400–pass; (2) Other Expenditures $47,500–pass.

14.4.(c) Multicultural Grants Advisory Council $294,600–pass.

Resolution 14.4: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $7,722,300 for Culture, Heritage and Citizenship, Citizenship and Multiculturalism, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 2000.

I would ask the minister's staff to leave the table.

Item 14.1. Administration and Finance (a) Minister's Salary $27,000–pass.

Resolution 14.1: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $2,635,600 for Culture, Heritage and Citizenship, Administration and Finance, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 2000.

This completes the Estimates of the Department of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship.

The time being six o'clock, committee rise.