House Business

Hon. Darren Praznik (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, I have a number of announcements to make about business today and over the next few days. First of all, given that we will be dealing with private members' hour tomorrow at 10 a.m., I think if you canvass the House you will find there is a willingness to waive private members' hour today.

Madam Speaker: Is there unanimous consent of the House to waive private members' hour today in appreciation that we will have two one-hour segments of private members' hour tomorrow morning? [agreed]

Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, in the interests of making sure members have as much notice as possible–and I want to thank my colleague the opposition House leader–we have been attempting to be able to make private members' time one in which members would find to be a more interesting and worthwhile than the past. Tomorrow I would like to indicate to the House that we will be calling for consideration Resolution No.18, moved by the member for Swan River (Ms. Wowchuk) with respect to the Estey report.

Madam Speaker, at this time I would like to ask for leave of the House for this period a number of things. One is we would like to have both hours tomorrow dedicated to the debate of this resolution. So that is the first thing for which I will need leave.

We would also like to amend the rules to shorten the speaking time to 10 minutes per member, because we anticipate a great deal of interest in this matter.

Thirdly, we, with unanimous consent, would like to call upon Madam Speaker to interrupt the proceedings tomorrow at a quarter to 12 to vote on this resolution.

As members appreciate, we are attempting to do some different things in private members'. So, if we could have leave of the House today for those three things, then members will have full notice as to and in anticipation of what we will be doing tomorrow.

Madam Speaker: Is there unanimous consent of the House to deal with private members' hour for two hours devoted to Resolution 18 proposed by the honourable member for Swan River (Ms. Wowchuk), firstly? [agreed]

Is there leave for Madam Speaker to interrupt the proceedings at 11:45 a.m. to have a vote on this resolution? [agreed]

Is there also unanimous consent of the House to reduce the normal speaking time from 15 minutes to 10 minutes per member for this resolution only? [agreed]

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Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, then the work for tomorrow morning's session I think is complete, and when the House reconvenes at that time, at 10 a.m. tomorrow, then the business is there at hand for that particular day.

Secondly, I would also like to serve notice–and I just look to the opposition House leader (Mr. Ashton) because I want to make sure this, in fact, is confirmed. But we were looking at calling the committee to complete the work on the Workers Compensation Board for next Tuesday, the 22nd of June. So I would indicate and announce today that the Standing Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources will meet on Tuesday, June 22, 1999, at 10 a.m. in Room 255 for consideration of the Annual Report of the Workers Compensation Board for the year ended December 31, 1998, and the December 31, 1998, Report of the Appeal Commission. I just look to the others. I think that has covered all the matters before that committee. [interjection] Yes, I believe that there are issues around the Five-Year Annual Report. So the matters that have been under consideration, we would also indicate should further be considered until that work is completed by the committee.

Madam Speaker: The announcement is that the Standing Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources will meet Tuesday, June 22, at 10 a.m. in Room 255 to continue to consider the matters of the Workers Compensation.

Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, in the interests again of as much information to members as possible, for tomorrow afternoon the opposition House leader and I are discussing a manner in which we can, in maximizing time, also be dealing with several bills. I hope to make that announcement tomorrow. But I just wanted to indicate that there are discussions currently going underway as to how we could manage that for the maximization of time and business this House must dispatch.

With respect to Committee of Supply for this afternoon, it is my intention to move the motion for the House to go into Committee of Supply. I would ask, because I know we have had some juggling of Estimates to accommodate a number of issues on both sides of the House, that in the Chamber for this afternoon the Sport department could continue in its Estimates. We understand that that may in fact be completed today, in which case the Department of Rural Development would then continue with its Estimates in the Chamber. In Room 255, the Department of Consumer and Corporate Affairs will continue, and I imagine if they complete by six o'clock the next in order would follow. [interjection] Pardon me, I may have just made an error in my notes. I had checked with the deputy opposition House leader. We may have had different information.

An Honourable Member: Sports, then Consumer Affairs.

Mr. Praznik: Okay, and in the Chamber will be Rural Development.

Madam Speaker, just to amend that then, in the Chamber we will be dealing with the Department of Rural Development; in Room 255 we will complete, I understand, the Estimates of the Sport secretariat followed by Consumer and Corporate Affairs; and in Room 254, the Department of Energy and Mines.

Madam Speaker: Is there unanimous consent of the House for the following adjustments to the Estimates sequence for today only: Rural Development to be considered in the Chamber; Energy and Mines to be dealt with in Room 254; and the Estimates of Sport–and upon completion of the Estimates of Sport, the Department of Consumer and Corporate Affairs–to be considered in Room 255? [agreed]

Mr. Praznik: I make notice as well, at this point the opposition House leader and I are working on an order for a number of other committees to meet on Tuesday morning, and we hope to be able to announce that over a number of weeks very, very shortly to accommodate a variety of requests for annual reports to be dealt with.

I would then at this time move, seconded by the honourable Minister of Environment (Mrs. McIntosh), that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair and that this House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty.

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Mr. Chairperson (Gerry McAlpine): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This afternoon, this section of the Committee of Supply meeting in Room 254 will resume consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Energy and Mines. When the committee last sat, it had been considering item 23.2. Energy and Mineral Resources (c) Mines (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits on page 59 of the main Estimates book.

Ms. MaryAnn Mihychuk (St. James): I do know that my colleague for Flin Flon (Mr. Jennissen) also has additional questions that he would like to ask and will be joining us later on during the process. He will probably be here very shortly. I will turn over the questioning when he comes.

I have a number of questions related to the Mines Branch. A lot of them have been generated from the recent Mining Board hearing, where we did find individuals involved who fraudulently staked a number of claims, which ultimately raised a series of questions as to the number of inspectors that we have. Are we able to ensure that The Mines Act is being complied with and, ultimately, is it enforceable?

So I would like to start off the questioning in a general way by looking at the overall personnel changes. We do see additional staff indicated in this area and would like some clarification as to the additional 1.5 staff members in the Professional/Technical line of the Mines Branch.

Hon. David Newman (Minister of Energy and Mines): The department intends to utilize 1.5 staff years, as specified on page 29 of the subappropriation 23.2.(c), for the purpose of providing the kind of supervision you suggest when they are not engaged in the activities related to the quarry rehabilitation program.

Ms. Mihychuk: Is the minister suggesting that quarry inspectors that deal with sand and gravel and the construction industry are going to be expected to do claims inspections?

Mr. Newman: Only to the extent it relates to aggregate quarries.

Ms. Mihychuk: Can the minister indicate how many inspectors there are in the petroleum component, the metallic mineral component and the quarry sector of our mineral industry?

Mr. Newman: Four inspector functions or positions in the petroleum area, five persons in the quarry area, and six persons in the minerals area. One of those is employed by our department, and five of them are employed in the Department of Labour.

Ms. Mihychuk: Can the minister tell us how many employees are hired in the Department of Labour that deal with petroleum and quarry minerals?

Mr. Newman: To my knowledge, zero.

Ms. Mihychuk: Is it not true that the inspectors for petroleum and quarry deal with the mineral management and the operation and the enforcement of The Mines Act, similar to the one inspector in the metallics, and I guess my question is: why would the minister indicate there are six inspectors for the metallic minerals branch when in reality there is one? The other five deal with safety issues and are actually in the Department of Labour.

Mr. Newman: This perpetuates the misunderstanding which you obviously had when you asked me a question in Question Period–through you, Mr. Chair. There is an entire branch of the Department of Labour responsible for mines inspection. In addition to a head office in Winnipeg, this branch has regional offices in Thompson, Flin Flon and Snow Lake. My understanding from the briefing of my staff is that that branch includes five mines inspectors, one safety and health officer and a director of mining inspections.

The roles of the various inspectors in Energy and Mines differ substantially. To highlight this variability, but first to summarize, the roles and responsibilities of the quarry and petroleum, in the view of my department, are considerably broader and more complex than the roles of the claims inspector. The duties of the claims inspector, from the perspective of my staff, are focused on ensuring claims have been staked in accordance with the appropriate legislation and regulations, and, therefore, they characterize this as a legal inspection responsibility. The duties of the claims inspector include assisting prospectors, testifying before the Mining Board and providing training with regard to staking requirements, and while these duties are client service activities, they are related to the legal inspection responsibility.

The duties of a quarry inspector involve inspections to ensure necessary permit, lease and registration certificate dispositions have been obtained in accordance with legislative requirements and that production reports are accurately filed and the associated royalty payment and rehabilitation levy payments are submitted. These are legal inspection responsibilities.

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The quarry inspectors enforce environmental operating standards applying to pit-and-quarry operations and provide a one-window response to any environmental complaints from the public. This is an environmental inspection responsibility.

Quarry inspectors direct mining or public-operated Crown pits and quarries to ensure orderly operation of progressive rehabilitation. Inspectors also conduct necessary safety inspections under The Workplace Safety and Health Act for pit and quarry operations. This is a safety inspection responsibility. Inspectors carry out rehabilitation of all depleted pits and quarries.

Petroleum inspectors are responsible for inspecting complex surface facilities and witnessing downhole operations to ensure the requirements of The Oil and Gas Act are complied with. These inspections constitute a legal inspection responsibility.

Petroleum inspectors, as well as the director of Petroleum and the chief petroleum engineer, are designated as safety and health officers under The Workplace Safety and Health Act. Inspectors exercise this authority in respect of all oilfield operation, including trenching, confined entry, derricks and cranes, accident investigation and reporting, and so on. These activities constitute a safety and health inspection responsibility.

Petroleum inspectors are the first point of contact with regard to environmental issues relating to the oil and gas industry; for example, spills, emissions, et cetera. Issues arising out of these inspections are either dealt with under The Oil and Gas Act or referred to Environment for input or collaboration. These activities constitute an environmental inspection responsibility.

Petroleum inspectors also play a significant role in client service as they are the first point of contact to new companies investing in the province. In addition, as many Manitoba-based operators lack the sophisticated knowledge to properly and effectively develop marginal oil and gas resources, the inspectors often provide information and guidance to these individuals. These activities constitute a client/service responsibility.

I might add, I just read while I was in the House actually, the Northern Miner, June 7-13, '99, issue, in a letter to the editor. The heading was: Saskatchewan Gives Prospectors Short Shrift. It was talking about the overzealousness of the officials in the Department of Energy and Mines there in terms of enforcing and acting in ways that offended this individual from Thunder Bay, Ontario, to such a degree that he concluded his letter to the editor by saying: if you want to explore and spend your money in the East Germany of western Canada, give the department of mining and energy my regards. He is referring of course to Saskatchewan Energy and Mines.

If that is the kind of direction that a great deal of policing, which is done inappropriately, is in your mind, in relation to your whole approach to the inspection responsibilities to the department and a lack of appreciation for what is preferred as an honour system or self-responsibility system, then we are obviously going to agree to disagree on that.

Ms. Mihychuk: How many claims are staked annually?

Mr. Newman: Mr. Chair, in 1998, there were 571 new mining claims staked and one exploration permit recorded. That might not be an average or a representative number, because we are not in the best of times. The high end, as I am advised, would be in the range of about a thousand.

Ms. Mihychuk: How many of these claims have been inspected by the claims inspector?

Mr. Newman: Since last October, we did about 120 inspections.

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Ms. Mihychuk: I know that the department has contracted several inspectors. In fact, for quite a while there were no mines inspectors, no claims inspectors, and that because of the dispute that came forward to the Mining Board–and I understand there are additional disputes–that there has been a concerted or a flurry of activity in, particularly, the eastern region. If we excluded that case, how many claims have been inspected?

Mr. Newman: The contracted position is expected to do, over the three months of that contracted period, about 35 additional inspections to the 120 I mentioned.

Ms. Mihychuk: I need clarification. The 120 inspections were in eastern Manitoba in the Bissett area. Is that correct?

Mr. Newman: The estimate from my department is that there is about 60 percent in the east and 40 percent in the north.

Ms. Mihychuk: Is it possible for the minister to provide a report–I am assuming that the inspectors indicate where they have been and when they have been there–so that we could have an idea of how many inspections? I find it very difficult to get a handle of the actual numbers. It seems to be fairly speculative as to the number of inspections that have occurred. I did not think that this would a particularly difficult question, but perhaps the paperwork is just not here.

Can the minister also indicate, on average, how long does it take to inspect a claim block or a claim?

Mr. Newman: If you want an average figure, my advice is that the range is so diverse, depending on the circumstances and the difficulties of access and the terrain and weather conditions and everything, that it would be a pretty unreliable figure. The other point I make–I mean, you can continue to explore this line of questioning; it is your choice of how you use your time, but this is essentially intended to be not an inspect-every-claim process; it is essentially a random kind of process designed not to make claim stakers lazy but rather to make them all believe that any one of them at any time could be subjected to an inspection.

Once again, referring to that Saskatchewan situation where the East German kind of approach referred to is taken, there the allegation is made that the company had not written "international" in full as part of the company name on claims posts so that the department disputed that. The goal of our claims inspectors is to induce honourable and legal behaviour by claims inspectors, not to be a nanny to claims inspectors.

Ms. Mihychuk: I take from that that we do not know how long, on average, it takes to walk a claim, that in fact that would be an important, I think, piece of information to know, whether the department has sufficient staffing to cover the 571 or even to do one in four claims. Is the staffing ratio sufficient? What would the minister call appropriate, one in 10 claims, one in a hundred claims? Can the minister indicate what he would consider to be a sufficient inspection ratio?

Mr. Newman: If you are trying to calculate the odds of not getting caught or something, by virtue of the allocation or what is deemed to be an appropriate randomness, it is random. Those statistics are not kept, and quite frankly I find it somewhat disturbing that you would suggest that we should be keeping track of average times of inspections as if that is a performance measure, that is a performance evaluation of an inspector or something. I mean, it would be like saying the community police or something that, you know, you have got to make–in any event, if you want to pursue this line, we will try and answer, but we do not have that information at hand, and I would find it difficult to volunteer. I will not volunteer doing that kind of analysis. It would be counterproductive, a waste of valuable time and valuable people.

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Ms. Mihychuk: Can the minister tell us what the claims inspector who was based in The Pas, what his job role was? Did it include the inspection of all quarry mineral sites in northern Manitoba as well as the metallic mineral claim staking?

Mr. Newman: No.

Ms. Mihychuk: Can the minister indicate who the quarry inspector is, responsible for the Thompson area?

Mr. Newman: Jack Adams of the Department of Labour.

Ms. Mihychuk: Can the minister clarify? Do I understand correctly that we have a Department of Labour inspector doing quarry inspections?

Mr. Newman: Yes, that is so.

Ms. Mihychuk: Given the responsibility of quarry mineral inspectors, is the minister confident that this individual has the training or expertise in quarry minerals to do that inspection?

Mr. Newman: My deputy minister and director of Mines are satisfied that they have the required competence, qualifications to do the job, yes.

Ms. Mihychuk: How many active or temporarily inactive quarry sites are there in what we would call northern Manitoba? That would be from Swan Lake up to the Territories.

Mr. Newman: The best information that my department can come up with without researching it, and this is not readily available information, as I gather, is that there are probably about 4,000 pits and quarries throughout the province of various sizes and levels of activity. In terms of actual numbers, active, inactive, regardless of size, that is about the number.

Ms. Mihychuk: My questions are leading to the department's ability to ensure the compliance with The Mines Act. There are a number of questions that I have about the availability of inspectors and the size of the geography and the number of sites that inspectors are able to handle realistically. We want to ensure that the mineral industry in all sectors is complying with The Mines Act. Otherwise, we would not have a Mines Act, or if it needs revision, we would be reviewing it.

However, the question of the overall number of inspectors, I think, needs to be reviewed. If we have five quarry inspectors, and all of them are based in southern Manitoba and we have or are relying on an inspector from the Department of Labour to do the rest of the province, is that equitable distribution of work, and are we assured that we are getting the royalties and that the safety standards and environmental issues are being complied with in half of the province? Those questions, I think, are serious and deserve the minister's attention and review.

Five quarry inspectors fully trained and working are concentrated from Dauphin south, or they may even go up to Swan River. I am not sure of how far north the Dauphin-Roblin area goes in terms of a northern extension. But there are a number of quarries and activities in the North that, with one inspector from the Department of Labour, it leads to the question whether the department is getting compliance. That is an important aspect when we are looking at fairness, when some companies are required to pay royalties and others maybe are not.

There is an onus on, I believe, the department to ensure that The Mines Act is being complied with. I really was not going to focus on the quarry mineral aspect, because five quarry mineral inspectors for an industry that generates approximately $80 million of economic activity may be reasonable, I am not sure. But, you know, compare that with $80 million in the petroleum industry. There seems to be some relative equality or equity in those numbers. Even if you looked at the Department of Labour individuals in the metallic industry, they do quite a different job: they do mine sites; they ensure the safety conditions are appropriate; they do a lot of labour and workplace inspections. So, even if you counted them in, that would only be six, and the metallic mineral industry generates a billion dollars worth of economic activity.

Those questions, I think, are relevant, important, and should be of a concern to the minister, given the recent scandal with information that a number of claims, I understand, perhaps exceeding 40, were inappropriately staked. This leads to the question: are we able to ensure a reasonable compliance; and, if we are not able to, does it not lead individuals into a form of paper staking where locations are given in to the recording office but the posts are not necessarily marked and tagged appropriately? The lines are not marked.

For the randomness that the minister talks about is, indeed, I would say, on the odds of being quite rare. We have to be concerned that fraudulent stakers, fraudulent staking in Manitoba is inappropriate, will not be condoned by the government, and there needs to be the assurance by the department that they have sufficient staffing to ensure that fraudulent claim staking will not occur. Otherwise, I think it is an obligation of the government to indicate another form of staking. If they are going to map staking, then I think there is an onus on behalf of the government to make that clear because people invest a lot of time, money, energy, to go out and do either one or the other of the processes. But, to be fair and above board, it is important to tell the industry what the expectations are in the present and in the future for people involved in claim staking.

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Mr. Newman: The expectation is that claim stakers will do their job honourably and in accordance with the law and in accordance with the expectations of the licence, and, if they do not, they are going to lose their licence. If they swear false statutory declarations, the direction given to the department is for violations of the Criminal Code and violations of The Mines Act, that people should be held accountable with prosecutions when appropriate to make sure that everyone is aware that there cannot be inappropriate activity as a claim staker with impunity. So the deterrent aspect is a very important creative tension in ensuring that there will be rare cases, hopefully, where there are violations.

The other thing which you do not seem to appreciate is that there is an obligation, I would suggest, on people in the industry, whether it is fellow employees or fellow claim stakers or employers, managers, anyone who is a citizen to report any inappropriate activity. I was in the labour relations field before I came into government, and that is what drives complaints about payment of wages and all those kinds of things. It is whistleblowers; it is people who do not want someone else to get an advantage.

Sometimes it is malicious. Sometimes an inspection is driven by a desire to hurt somebody else or embarrass somebody else, but there is no question the inspectors in our department respond to complaints. They also have enough judgment that–some people are new claim stakers, and they might as a result be green and more apt to make mistakes, so those should be areas which would attract a higher degree of inspection probability.

The answer is that it is a judgment call. It is a management judgment call as to whether or not, given all of the kinds of ways of ensuring or maximizing the assurance that people are doing things in accordance with the rules and regulations, it is a judgment call as to whether or not you need more inspector hours, whether you need more inspections, whether you need a different quality of inspection, whether you need more deterrence, whether you need more education of people involved in staking, whether you have to encourage people to whistleblow more, to take this seriously. All of those are the kinds of considerations which are entrusted with the people who manage the department.

I do not get involved in micromanagement of the department. If the inspections and all of the other tensions are not resulting in a high standard of claim staking, the people, the management of the department, right through to the deputy minister, are going to be accountable to me for that. You were suggesting on the strength of the one case before the Mining Board that there must be far more to this, that this is the tip of the iceberg. Well, my department, in light of that decision, is certainly going to give me the assurance that either the status quo is going to be improved to minimize the chances, and prosecution is one of the ways to address the consequence of that one, or they are going to have to look at whether or not we do need more inspection hours, whether we need different kinds of inspection, whether we need more education.

That is their responsibility, and my deputy knows that and the people in the department know that. If you do have any evidence that this kind of situation goes beyond the instance that went before the Mining Board, I invite you to share it with the department through me or directly. I would appreciate it, if you do it directly, to copy me on it, because then I will be able to make them accountable for, as I say, making sure that there is a confidence in the industry that claim staking is being done appropriately.

In the bigger picture, I have indicated earlier that I have also asked my department to take a look on a pilot basis, more than take a look, but to move forward with a consultation process to develop a pilot project for map staking which will then see whether or not that has something that has some merit over time as a way to, one, avoid this kind of doubt about the system entirely, and, secondly, maybe to send out a message to stakers that there is an alternative if they are not going to do things right.

There is an alternative which could be implemented, perhaps. We want to find out what the implications of doing that are, and, thirdly, that the reliability of that system and the attractiveness of that to explorationists generally, because they have to have confidence in this, they have to believe in it as well, and a huge amount of self-interest in preserving the status quo because that is the way things have always been done.

But that is not reason not to look at it. It is a good reason not to think that today's wisdom and limited experience in other jurisdictions suggests that that is the best way to go or the fairest way to go. There has got to be also consideration about the big players, who probably would support map staking, and the small players, who would oppose it. So it is a very interesting issue. It is an issue which has become very political. It is simply the kind of thing that should be done in cautious, measured, consultative ways with a view to determining what is going to serve the industry and therefore the public interest best.

Ms. Mihychuk: Is the minister through the department pursuing prosecution of the individuals found to have fraudulently staked claims?

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Mr. Newman: The furthest I can go on that is that it is in the hands of the Justice department evaluating evidence and will decide whether or not there is grounds for prosecution. If there are that is what I presume they would do.

Ms. Mihychuk: It is my understanding that the Justice department has actually given an evaluation of the ability to prosecute and that The Mines Act requires onus or intent to be proven and that basically witnesses would be necessary. Given that many claims are staked in areas of remoteness, it is very unlikely that there would be witnesses to the act. Can the minister confirm that there has been communication with the Department of Justice?

Mr. Newman: Quite the contrary, your information is not based on information that has been received by us. My deputy and the director of the Mines Branch have no knowledge of what you speak. We have not yet heard from the legal counsel who is doing the evaluation of this particular situation.

Ms. Mihychuk: Is it true that the individuals that have turned in their licences and turn back the claims are able to continue to work in the province of Manitoba as claim stakers? I will leave it open.

Mr. Newman: The licence of the impugned individual here was suspended and the person cannot do claim staking without a licence.

Ms. Mihychuk: It is my understanding that individuals can be contracted by companies that hold claim staking licences and that these individuals would then be working on behalf of another party. Would that be an avenue that these individuals would in fact still continue to be staking in Manitoba?

Mr. Newman: I am having some difficulty following this through. I am going to have to express what I understand you are saying. You are saying if John Smith, who has a claims licence, hires the person whose licence is suspended to do claim staking for John Smith, your question is whether or not that suspended claim staker has the right to then work for John Smith doing claim staking work. The answer to that would be yes, but then the person with the claim staking licence, John Smith, would have to swear the statutory declaration saying that the staking was done in a certain manner. The inspection responsibility, if you will, would be that person who hired this individual to do it. So all of the accountability falls on the person with the licence. The person who has the licence then has accountability for his performance, and the person that has the name on the claim has accountability. The same person who puts the name on the claim, that particular licence inspector is accountable as the claim holder as well as the claim staker.

Ms. Mihychuk: What process does the department use to inform industry of individuals who have been found to have staked claims fraudulently?

Mr. Newman: One, a notice is sent to all recording officers. In addition to that, you would have to have a licence to be able to record. So there is a notice and a requirement to produce a licence. The recording offices are in The Pas, Thompson, and Winnipeg, of course.

Ms. Mihychuk: Am I to understand that anybody who may be hiring a claim staker should go down to the recording office and ask for the references or the personal status of individuals? If they have been found to have done some illegal activities, how would a company like Inco or Falconbridge know that these individuals have participated in that?

We are talking about industry taking on a certain onus. Obviously they have the responsibility of that, but I know that in fact these individuals themselves have staked claims for others who have lost their claims and lost a lot of money because of it. So how would those small companies or larger companies be aware that there are unscrupulous individuals out there available for hire? I ask again, is the onus on behalf of the industry to check into recording offices on individuals that they intend to hire?

Mr. Newman: My advice and it seems to me the common-sense expectation would be that the responsibility of the hirer is to do a due diligence before engaging in an employee or a contractual relationship with anybody. One of the first steps in such a due diligence would surely be to ask that individual for a licence. In any relationship, if it is an employee relationship, I mean, you do all your regular due diligence checks, including reference checks, which might or might not involve the mining recording offices, but that seems to be a pretty appropriate place to do a check.

The other kind of relationship, a contractual relationship, those are buyer-beware kinds of relationships. I mean, you go with people that have a known reputation for performance. You would probably go beyond finding out whether they have a licence or not. In the contract you have with them, you would have presumably some warranty. I mean, whether you are dealing with a claim staker, whether you are dealing with a supplier of equipment or whether you are dealing with a supplier of legal services or a supplier of advice of any kind, it would just seem to me that that is the responsibility of the person doing the hiring or engaging.

Ms. Mihychuk: Have the individuals who have been found to have fraudulently staked claims received government grants through the MEAP or the prospecting program?

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Mr. Newman: Before I answer the question, perhaps you could clarify specifically who you were referring to. Which alleged fraudulent staker were you referring to in asking whether MEAP monies had gone to such an individual?

Ms. Mihychuk: Perhaps the minister can indicate how many fraudulent stakers we have in Manitoba.

Mr. Newman: At the moment, I only know of one who is alleged to be a fraudulent staker, and I am not sure whether you have another one or dozens or whatever. I have invited you to volunteer that information, so just tell me the name of the individual, because the individual who is the subject matter of the Mining Board hearing was given a MEAP incentive grant of $7,800 in 1997. The work there was inspected and was in accordance with the conditions of the grant.

Ms. Mihychuk: I understand it is a father, son, both with the similar last name Kaus, so I think that there were actually two individuals in this specific case that were identified having participated in shady business. Does that amount include both parties?

Mr. Newman: Yes.

Ms. Mihychuk: Can the minister tell us how many claims are actually up in dispute as a result of this complaint?

Mr. Newman: I am advised the first Mining Board hearing involved 35 claims, and the second one involved three claims.

Ms. Mihychuk: Can the minister tell us the process for opening up these claims again that were found to be fraudulently staked? What process is being developed so that individuals have an opportunity to regain the properties that they have invested in or potentially stake this land in their own names?

Mr. Newman: The process is that the claims are cancelled; then they are free to be staked. In this particular instance, my advice is that the person who claims to have been the victim of this particular unfortunate situation, Mr. Winiasz, proceeded to then stake what I understand to be the majority of those claims again. The question of whether or not anyone else has staked the balance, my information is no.

Ms. Mihychuk: This is my final question in this area. The Mining Board process was quite interesting. I had an opportunity just to sit in on a meeting that had to be cancelled because the individuals involved did not show up, the Kauses did not show up. I felt some sympathy for the complainant who had certain expenses, and obviously the process is one which is fairly judicial or legalistic. It has some power to make decisions and involved a number of people. So the Mining Board process itself I have asked the minister to review, because compared to other provincial review boards–and I had the privilege to sit on one myself–was quite different than the Mining Board process. A lot of the investigation and the calling in of witnesses was done by government as the prosecutor as bringing in the evidence and presenting it. In this case it was left up to the complainant, my understanding was.

So I am wondering if the process is being reviewed, and can the minister indicate if the minutes of the Mining Board proceedings are public, or how would individuals get copies or even the results of the Mining Board decision? How would that information be disseminated to those interested, to the industry in a larger sense, which I think is important, because cases like this give us an opportunity to review our processes and hopefully to improve them.

Mr. Newman: I think the honourable member for St. James has raised a very interesting idea, and that would be an examination of what appears to be, from the understanding of my department, a current policy of not broadly disseminating the decisions of the board but making the written decision with reasons now available to all interested parties only. But I certainly do support and was a major influence on the labour board of this province, for example, and any other administrative tribunal, having been sensitive to the fact that there is an interest in what decisions are by people who might not at the immediate moment be interested and sometimes disseminating those kinds of decisions broadly and even to media, and certainly to concerned media, can sometimes get a message out as to what the standards are and what the consequences are and so forth.

So I think you have made a very valid point which I take seriously, and I asked my department to look into that. When I get a report back from them as to what the Mining Board's exact current policy is, I will share that with you, and I will endeavour to encourage a policy that is along that kind of line.

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The other point you make about the prosecution here, the prosecution was effectively brought forward or the complaint was brought forward by an individual adversely affected by the impugned claim staker, and that is the way the process works. I am advised that the Mining Board does have authority toward costs against the department in an appropriate case where they have been in default or perhaps in the public interest, but costs were not awarded in this kind of situation. But what does intrigue me, in light of your question, is whether or not, if there were a prosecution and evidence is brought that a consequence of the prosecution is that someone was injured financially, a case could be made for restitution under the criminal system, whether by summary conviction or otherwise.

These are the kinds of things, I am sure, Harvey Winiasz would be getting advice from legal counsel about, but I am prepared to look into that as well. I think it is worth looking at, whether there is a disincentive to complainants coming forward because of the cost they are exposed to.

Two valid points. We will look at those, and I will get back to you.

Mr. Gerard Jennissen (Flin Flon): I am wondering again if I could ask some questions basically from around the Sherridon area, dealing with not only the contaminated site that we discussed yesterday but perhaps something somewhat different. It may in fact fall under Northern Affairs. I am not sure, but since the minister is also the Minister of Northern Affairs, I am sure he would not mind answering it.

That deals with the concerns some of the citizens of Sherridon-Cold Lake have regarding open mine shafts or capped stopes I believe they call them. These were fenced in approximately 30 years ago, I am guessing, with page wire, but are only sporadically maintained. I have talked with some of the citizens of Sherridon-Cold Lake, also the mayor, and they feel that it is just a matter of time when one of their children is going to fall into one of these mine shafts. I just want to ask the minister if there is a concerted effort to make sure that these open shafts that have been there for, I admit, a number of years, are fenced properly.

Mr. Newman: If ever I or any one of the members of my department heard that the situation was not safe, there is a responsibility on the department to fix it up immediately. So if you have any information that there is any issue, that is something the department should check out on an urgent basis because it is the responsibility of the department to keep them safe.

This is the short-term solution, the fencing solution. These situations, which fortunately are few, are the subject matter of the orphan site strategy, which we, through a number of the departments of government, are motivated and organized to address over time so that we have a permanent solution, not just a band-aid protective kind of solution, but a solution that addresses these unfortunate consequences of what in today's standards would be regarded as unacceptable mining practices and unacceptable rehabilitation practices. The standard is so much higher now with our new mine site rehabilitation regulations and the general standard expected by the industry. So these unfortunate taints from the past are a matter of considerable concern to us. In all of the competing priorities in government, it is something we want government to invest in resolving. But, in the meantime, there should be no compromise on safety. If you do have any information, please share it immediately.

Mr. Jennissen: I raise it only because the mayor of Sherridon-Cold Lake, Dennis Hatch, raised it, and they thought it was a serious issue. Nothing has happened yet, but they thought, you know, it would be wise to be proactive and make sure that fencing is in good shape. I am hopeful then that the minister's department will look into that.

I believe people had worked on it somewhat a year or two years ago, but apparently the wires are down again. I have no idea how many sites are involved here either, by the way, how many shafts, but it is a concern to the mayor, so I am hopeful that the minister will have his department look into it.

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Mr. Newman: Right in your presence I have given instructions through my deputy to the director that they should make every effort to contact that person ASAP and find out what that person has to say. If there is any exposure to danger because of the standards not being up to the normal standards which the department considers acceptable, they should be on a urgent basis.

Mr. Jennissen: I thank the minister for that answer. I will relay the message back to Mr. Dennis Hatch, who is the mayor of Sherridon. I am sure he will listen to us, and he will listen to the deputy minister, Mr. Boulette, who would know Dennis Hatch quite well, because we were both involved with him as a student in Cranberry Portage, going back more years than we want to really acknowledge. But, going back to the orphan sites, it is very interesting the term that the minister uses.

How many sites are we talking about, because I walked that north country quite a bit, especially around the first, second, third Cranberry Lakes, Elbow Lake, Herb Lake, Herb Lake Landing, those regions? There are a lot of old mine sites. Could the minister put a number to orphan sites?

Mr. Newman: My advice is that six have been identified and classified under that description. If you have a knowledge of any other ones, share them with the department, with a copy to me, because any one of the remnants of what would be unacceptable rehabilitation practices today and would jeopardize safety, health or the image of the mining industry will be the subject matter of a strategy to bring them up to modern-day acceptable standards. So you can send that message out there if there are any of these kinds of places.

It is in your interests as an MLA for Flin Flon and representing all the areas that you do in the North. It is incumbent on the MLA for Rupertsland and the MLA for The Pas, and any other MLA that has any mining in their area historically, to share that information so that for the sake of the image of mining we can make every effort to redress, as I say, these taints on the reputation of mining, because these kinds of ways of abusing the environment that are leaving a negative view of the relationship to the environment of mining do nothing but harm the image of mining. All of us who have an interest on behalf of the public to have a successful but environmentally and socially responsible mining industry should be motivated to address this situation, and so I invite your participating in the solution in that manner.

Mr. Jennissen: A lot of those old mine sites are something you trip over as you are moose hunting or fishing out in the bush in northern Manitoba. I have never actually encountered a danger, but I have heard others talk that it could be quite dangerous. It is true, mining practices have changed enormously. I am comparing places like Photo Lake and Namew Lake mine with something that would have been done 30, 40, 60 years ago when we were not as conscious of the environment. The minister is right. It is a billion-dollar industry. I am sure my colleague has also pointed that out. It is an industry we want to protect and support as much as possible. An image has an awful lot to do with it. So, yes, we want the positive image out there, and we want positive steps taken. I note some of them have been taken.

I was going to ask about a relatively new mine. I have actually never visited the site. But I have heard a lot about, and that was Puffy Lake mine, which is closed now. I am just wondering if the minister has any information on the status of that mine, or if cleanup is involved there or should be involved there. This is a very recent mine, and the minister may have more information than I have on that.

Mr. Newman: Puffy Lake, in the technical terms of art of the department, is considered an inactive mine site. I guess my way of describing it is sort of a mine in suspension because it still is considered to be something that a deposit, a product, still might be available for mining production. So it is not an orphan site at this time. Another part of the definition or the criteria for designating something an orphan site means that there is no liability ascertainable for rectifying the inappropriate rehabilitation. So there are situations where you have not just an orphan site, not just an inactive site, but you would have a site that is in need of rehabilitation, where there is liability. The standing instruction to my department is to aggressively pursue any party that is liable for inappropriate rehabilitation where there are evidence and probable cause, and the best advice from the Justice department is practical, and positive results can be achieved by seeking recourse and making accountable the potentially liable contaminators. I know of at least one situation where that is in process.

Mr. Jennissen: Just out of curiosity, if the tailing site in Sherridon-Cold Lake were in a more isolated area where there were no towns, would there be less priority on cleaning it up? Is this strictly related to sites, the fact that we are attempting to aggressively address the pollution issue as in Sherridon-Cold Lake? Is it a factor of people living there, or would it be done regardless, even if that site were in a totally remote wilderness area?

Mr. Newman: There is a need to prioritize always things that involve the expenditure of money. Considerations which would be foremost would be, of course, human health and well-being, but animal health and well-being and other means of livelihood, and simply respectful of all life, are very relevant considerations for prioritizing. So one looks at all of these situations in a totally holistic way, mindful of the impacts of doing nothing. If there is a threat to life and health, life or health, that puts something into a more urgent kind of category, and that would, then, I am sure, be an impetus for moving faster with a solution.

Mr. Jennissen: If I can go back to some of the questions, rather aspects of discussion we had yesterday on the Sherridon site again. I am looking at the Order-in-Council of February 8, 1995, in which $25,000 was allocated for the water quality monitoring program at Kississing Lake and an associated engineering review, and the minister mentioned that yesterday, as well as the Order-in-Council August 14, 1996, which involved $400,000 and dealt with the purpose of funding identified civil engineering potable water supply program.

Just to recapitulate the reason this was done, reading actually from the Order-in-Council: It is recognized that the tailings at Sherridon were deposited during the operation of the Sherridon mine, a copper zinc producer from 1931 to 1951 and have been confirmed as acid generating in nature; and whereas surface run-off waters from the acid generated tailings had affected the quality of Kississing Lake from which the nearby community of Cold Lake receives its potable water; and whereas Order-in-Council 46 1995, approved February 8, 1995, in the amount of $25,000 has confirmed the need for and estimates for the cost of providing the community of Cold Lake with an alternate potable water supply from Sherlett Lake; and whereas it is deemed advisable to provide funding from the mining community reserve to a maximum of $400,000 over the '96-97 fiscal year to fund a civil engineering program designed to provide the community of Cold Lake with such an alternate potable water supply from Sherlett Lake.

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The minister suggested that the phase two part would also come into effect at some point. I guess my question after having said all that, once again, in light of the fact the minister has said he would be aggressively pursuing funding to address these kinds of problems, is he saying then that this proposal that is before the Treasury Board does have a chance of success in the immediate future? The feeling I was left with yesterday is that this could be never, never.

Mr. Newman: We are now at the process of doing a further scoping study to determine the parameters. Growing out of that, there will be either an application or submission to Treasury Board for specific funding to deal with this or there would be supplementary funding to the budget we approve together, or, alternatively, we would seek funding for this in a plan out of the mining reserve which would, as we discussed yesterday, maximize the opportunities for the communities impacted by this mine closing to derive benefits from its rehabilitation.

Mr. Jennissen: I believe I may have asked the minister this yesterday as well, but I will ask it again: would the minister hazard a guess as to time lines?

Mr. Newman: I do not hazard guesses. I get information from my deputy who gets his information from staff that he entrusts to come up with reasoned and well-thought-out judgments and opinions. The target of the department is to have the assessment done during the month of August, completed during the month of August of this year, and when that is done a submission prepared, giving the best advice to government possible as to how funding should be sourced and how in the best public interest the remediation can be proceeded with expeditiously.

Mr. Jennissen: So I am interpreting that then to mean that there will definitely not be any project happening this year. There will be some study and recommendation but nothing actually physically happening before possibly next year.

Mr. Newman: I do not want to inflate expectations, but the direction was to move aggressively to address these things. That is the general policy direction they have from my level, so if there is any opportunity to do it this year without compromising the quality of it or the cost of it, then there is no decision made it should be this year or next year. The sooner the better.

Mr. Jennissen: Obviously, one of the aims in all of this was to provide better water for Sherridon and Cold Lake. Also Sherridon's sewage system supposedly will be quite an upgrade, and I am reading from a news release: Manitoba government news release August 11, 1998, Sherridon to receive $70,000 for sewage system upgrade to meet environmental treatment requirements. Could the minister give us an update on that or a status report?

Mr. Newman: I have repeatedly said, as you know, that the departments that I am involved with and the responsibilities I have are dealt with in a holistic manner, but one of the difficulties of having made that statement, then having to be accountable for it, I do not necessarily have that kind of information, which falls under Northern Affairs, handy with me here. To save you trouble and make it convenient for you, if you wish, we can undertake to provide that detail to you and either put it on the record to this question of Northern Affairs, but we will get that information.

Mr. Jennissen: Basically my last question and that is, if the minister is willing to do that, I thank him, and maybe at the same time then we could check out the exact status for Granville Lake. I got a call from people from Granville a number of months ago, and I believe a water and sewer line was being installed in Granville. I am thankful for that, for sure a water line, I believe. I am not sure about the sewage now, but hopefully–there was a concern about connecting to the houses. Apparently, there was money lacking to do that. Perhaps your deputy minister would be more up on that, and he could provide that information in Northern Affairs Estimates. I would be very happy to participate there as well.

Mr. Newman: We will certainly accommodate you, and we will have that information available for Northern Affairs Estimates and give you a totally up-to-date status report.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Penner): Item 23.2. Energy and Mineral Resources (c ) Mines (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits.

Ms. Mihychuk: I would like to now pursue some questions about the branch's process for reviewing grants to prospectors. In this program, I believe, prospectors are eligible to receive $7,500. Can the minister outline the program? Is it per claim or is it per individual? Is it possible for one individual to get several grants during one year?

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Mr. Newman: Under the program, qualified applicants may receive up to 50 percent of expenditures incurred to a maximum assistance level of $7,500 per applicant per year.

Ms. Mihychuk: Can the minister define what an application would involve? Is that one claim stake, one claim block? Could you do several claim blocks and make several applications in one year?

Mr. Newman: It could be any combination of what you describe, but the umbrella, the total amount that applicant can get would be $7,500. The cumulative total for that applicant would be $7,500 for all of what you have described, so you are not precluded from having a diverse set of projects. But the applicant only gets a total of $7,500 per year.

Ms. Mihychuk: Well, I was told of a story where perhaps an individual was misinformed perhaps, but raised some concerns as to the type of accountability that is involved with these grants.

How is the department assured that work is actually being done in the areas in question?

Mr. Newman: The applicants submit bills justifying their expenditures and also a report. Those are looked at and that is the kind of material that is used to determine whether or not the monies have been spent appropriately.

Ms. Mihychuk: Is there a requirement of applicants to actually go out into the field and collect samples?

Mr. Newman: Some do, some do not.

Ms. Mihychuk: What assurances do we have that the materials perhaps submitted for these claims are actually from those sites? I would ask if we have ever had any geological staff perhaps do random checks to assure that the submissions have some geological viability, validity.

Mr. Newman: My staff advise me that they are really not disposed nor do they think it is necessary to determine the sources, the exact spots. So that is not something that is a matter of concern or interest.

Ms. Mihychuk: Well, if I get a piece of concrete from a prospector, I will have to bring that specific case forward. But it does raise the question whether individuals are out in the field and if they are actually doing the exploration, which we hope they will be doing, because the purpose of the grants is to spur on exploration and have people out in the field doing some meaningful work. So I would urge the department to perhaps consider doing some random inspections. This may stem what might be a problem or might not be a problem before it develops into something bigger.

Mr. Newman: There is a very competent and very experienced geologist, Bruno Esposito, who is responsible for the program. The approach taken by the department is not that you need either nannies or police or a fraud line for prospectors and assistance program recipients, but a certain amount of informed judgment comes out of long experience and the kinds of knowledge that you well know as a graduate geologist.

Ms. Mihychuk: A number of provinces have got prospectors programs and grants. Has the department done an evaluation of our program compared to other provinces? I have been approached by a prospector urging us to consider the Ontario model rather than ours as a preferable way for a prospectors program.

Mr. Newman: An evaluation was done last year really with a view to determining whether or not the program should or should not be extended and whether the format should be changed. That evaluation led to the reinstallation of the program. In that process consideration was given to what other jurisdictions were doing.

Ms. Mihychuk: Moving to the area of quarry minerals, the Capital Region is a large consumer of quarry minerals. One of our largest reserves sits at Birds Hill Park. With the assumption that we will probably keep the park for the near future, can the minister relate to us what the reserves are in terms of quarry minerals for the Capital Region? What does the future lie?

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I know that in an earlier response the minister talked about bedrock as a source for quarry materials. This is potentially a new area of economic development. So I would be interested in hearing the status of quarry minerals in the Capital Region and an indication of how much that industry is worth, if we have some statistics like that, because Winnipeg is a large consumer of quarry minerals.

We have been blessed with having a fairly large reserve. I know that back in the '80s when I was active in the field, Toronto was hauling quarry materials by barges for many, many miles across Lake Ontario to bring material into Toronto. It was extremely expensive. Those types of pressures have not been felt in Winnipeg. In fact, I know that the importation of quarry minerals has been common in some southwestern municipalities, but Winnipeg has been very fortunate. We are close to a number of deposits, and I look to hearing from the minister what the future holds in terms of the quarry industry.

Mr. Newman: First to put this in context, the last comprehensive review of the aggregate resources in the Winnipeg region was done in June of 1976. The relevant finding at that time was there appeared to be sufficient high quality sand and gravel within the region including the forest reserves to meet demands until 2026 but probably not more than five to 10 years beyond that time. So proactively, as I indicated to you earlier, a report is being done now which will be finalized if all goes according to schedule for completion in the year 2000 which would update the inventories of sand and gravel. Over a longer period of time, over the next two to three years, a synthesized report on sand and gravel resources will be developed. A final report summarizing the mineral potential, engineering geology and groundwater geology of the Capital Region is scheduled for completion in the year 2000, and that will be a joint publication with the Water Resources Branch, Geological Survey of Canada and the City of Winnipeg.

You asked about the magnitude of the industry. This might be more specific. Sand, gravel and crushed stone production in the province, as well as some dimension stone, totalled over $47 million in 1994, and, as a result, it is a significant production relative to the whole of the mining sector.

Another figure which shows the magnitude is geological mapping in the Rockwood area based upon quarry inventories and water well records begun in 1995. That area was selected because it contains nine active quarries that produced almost 2 million tonnes of crushed stone worth over $10 million in 1995. Just looking at total aggregate production, 1992 through 1996, the range is between roughly 3.5 metric tonnes and 4.7 metric tonnes. That is 1992 through 1996.

Ms. Mihychuk: Is the demand increasing for quarry minerals in the Capital Region?

Mr. Newman: We do not have readily available demand forecasts.

Ms. Mihychuk: Does the minister think that perhaps this an area that requires some review? Some individuals have indicated that this industry may be worth $60 million to $80 million annually now. I understand that the department is doing a review, but we do not know what the demand is, and we have not really been watching the situation in terms of quarry minerals.

Is the minister concerned that the lack of basic information about this sector may compromise our ability to sustain that mineral resource and inhibit or limit our ability to do proper management in the Capital Region?

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Mr. Newman: The answer to the question is, yes, I am concerned about it because the last supply-demand forecast was in 1976. What makes me particularly concerned is there is a certain amount of resistance now to extraction development of some of these sites as population is moving into areas impacted by quarrying. So it is a very good thing to do at the time when we are examining the whole Capital Region and the importance of the public being educated of the value of this. The only way we can do effective sustainability or sustainable development in the populated areas is to have public understanding and, therefore, support for it as a way of generating revenue and useful product for their benefit.

Ms. Mihychuk: What is the total amount of royalties or rentals, the money generated from the quarry sector?

Mr. Newman: Just to save time, we will undertake to provide you with the figure.

Ms. Mihychuk: Well, I would like to share a story that the Chairman and I discussed in this committee just a little while ago when the department was looking for some information to respond to a question. That was that in I believe the Morden area a recent deposit was found which was buried–

An Honourable Member: Morris.

Ms. Mihychuk: Oh, around Morris, pardon me. The Chairman is clarifying it was close to Morris. It was buried under clay only to the amount of three or four feet but, given that there was no significant topographical expression, it was the good fortune of those property owners to dig in that spot. They found a fairly significant aggregate deposit which resulted in economic success, we could say, for those individuals, because the Morris area and the area in the clay plain is devoid of aggregate material. Those communities are forced to truck it in from considerable distances.

This is a case in point where I think perhaps merit may be given by the department through the minister to perhaps increase the number of projects that focus on exploration in the clay plain. We see municipalities hauling in and incurring significant costs, and those are public dollars. If we could find more deposits that are readily available, that would help those municipalities and ease the tax burden for Manitobans.

This is a sector that I feel has been shortchanged. It does not glitter. It is a basic need, and we do not have many geologists assigned to it. It was an area that received a lot more attention in the '80s. There is a fairly small group of individuals working in the quarry mineral sector. I do not know if there is the opportunity to review these priorities, but I would argue that indeed opportunities exist to perhaps discover aggregate deposits that will make a significant economic impact for those municipalities.

Mr. Newman: I do not intend to venture a speculation about what to propose. Maybe it is something that Minister Derkach might take a look at as the minister responsible for Rural Development.

Ms. Mihychuk: I have to respond, because I clearly do not agree with the minister. Quarry minerals are a geological deposit. The onus to do exploration and public good in terms of exploration would fall clearly in the hands of Energy and Mines. That is where the expertise is and that is where it has been historically. To move it to Rural Development would be a completely new realm for that and in fact the expertise lies in the department, and my question was a matter of priorities. If the minister does not wish to explore that, that is his prerogative, but clearly in my opinion the onus for exploration and management of aggregate materials should remain with the Department of Energy and Mines.

Mr. Newman: I would submit the onus lies with the private sector primarily. We have created a portion of our MEAP program that provides incentives for industrial mineral exploration. That is the role that we play, and in addition to that, we are participating in this kind of study that we spent some time discussing which will be relevant and useful information for those in the private sector that want to profit from the knowledge that we will disseminate.

Ms. Mihychuk: Does the department have an inventory of pits and quarries as to those that are active and inactive in southern Manitoba?

Mr. Newman: The department does have an inventory of sites, yes.

Ms. Mihychuk: Can the minister indicate how many pits are presently active in the Capital Region?

Mr. Newman: We do not have that information handy, but we can undertake to provide you with that information if you want it? Do you want it?

Ms. Mihychuk: Yes.

Mr. Newman: We will do it then.

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Ms. Mihychuk: Moving to the rehabilitation of pits and quarries which I think is an applaudable project and we need to do that. There are many, many hundreds, probably thousands of depleted quarry sites and pit sites that need to be rehabilitated and made safe and scenic and restored into usable environmental landscapes. My question is related to pits or quarries that are active or inactive but still hold reserves and the potential to become active in the near future. For those sites, what type of requirements are required in terms of buffering for noise and visibility?

Mr. Newman: The information we have readily available here is more general than I think you are seeking but impacted lands that are being subjected to rehabilitation are restored back to a useful, productive and environmentally acceptable condition to the benefit of the public in general. Exactly what that means in terms of kinds of buffers in actual situations, if any, we would have to get you that kind of information. We will undertake to provide that to you.

Ms. Mihychuk: I think the minister was referring to depleted deposits that were ready for reclamation or rehabilitation. My concern relates to pits that are there and that we cannot very well grade and grass, because we are going to need those resources in the near future. They too are eyesores. There are many highways in Manitoba that we go by, pits and quarries that are quite visible from the highways. I know that some jurisdictions, for example Ontario, require pit owners to have a vegetation screen that is of a significant height so that those sites are not seen by the travelling public.

I am wondering if there has been any evaluation. My concern would be obviously that it may lead to more of what is known locally as pit parties and quarries. Certain esker deposits make wonderful pools where teenagers tend to gravitate to. Having participated in a couple myself I know that is bound to happen. But having a large screen there may actually promote that. We had a recent case where serious concerns were raised about kids being in a quarry site, so I was very impressed with the program, which screened quarries and pits, because it clearly made a difference in terms of the travelling public. I am wondering if Manitoba has considered such a project.

Mr. Newman: While they are getting the answer to your final point, I was responsive in my previous answer to your question to sites rehabilitated. You are interested in sites that are potentially active. With respect to those sites and buffer requirements, setback limits are established from the residential areas and roadways after a review of activities. Inspectors, in consultation with landowners and nearby residents, decide on the buffer requirements. If you do want specific examples of the kinds of requirements that have been the product of this, we will undertake to get that information for you. Is that your wish or not?

Ms. Mihychuk: I am not really looking at specifics. I was looking more at a broad policy decision or a regulation that would make pit owners responsible for establishing significant vegetation buffers. It does not happen in Manitoba. I do know there is a certain road allowance provision and there are berms that are sometimes created. In specific cases where it is problematic, that is dealt with individually. My question was more broadly based and dealt with the pits that we see virtually on every highway and quite clearly from the roadways. Has any consideration been given to make Manitoba more beautiful by requiring that type of buffer?

Mr. Newman: With respect to the future, and that was your final point, there are consultations underway with the environmental department to determine what kind of screen would be required or desirable. The department is in the process of formulating written policies.

Ms. Mihychuk: Can the minister update us as to the hiring process for the claims inspector?

Mr. Newman: The claims inspector's job has been advertised, and 11 applications have been received. The applications are being screened by the department to select qualified candidates for interviews to be held on June 21, 1999.

Ms. Mihychuk: Where would this position be based out of? Was it the intention of the department to keep it in The Pas? Make it more central? Have it here in Winnipeg? Has there been any indication?

Mr. Newman: The Pas.

Ms. Mihychuk: I am prepared to move on to another section.

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Mr. Chairperson: 23.2. Energy and Mineral Resources (c) Mines (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1,444,500–pass; (2) Other Expenditures $597,000–pass.

23.2.(d) Geological Services (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $2,726,200.

Ms. Mihychuk: I have a number of questions in this area. It is an extremely important component of the department's responsibility. It is always brought up to me by industry representatives that they would like to see more geological services, groundwork done, more exploration, more maps, and so that comes out loud and clear at every meeting that we have with industry. It looks like the status quo is the case here for Geological Services. Can the minister indicate why they did not look at expansion of our Geological Services provision?

Mr. Newman: We have made every effort to show a high priority towards our geoscience expenditures. The expenditures over the last three years: 1996-97 were 3.74 million; 1997-98, 3.69 million; 1998-99, 3.78 million.

What is significant is that since 1982-83 through 1995-96, when we spent less than those amounts we ranked between sixth and eighth in the provinces in this country. Yet, over the last three years, by more than maintaining our expenditures, where other provinces had been in several cases reducing their expenditures, we have been consistently ranked over the last three years fourth in the amount we put into geoscience. Those three ranking ahead of us are Ontario, Quebec and British Columbia, which, of course, all have significantly larger production and tax revenues growing out of the presence of mining in their province.

It is quite interesting, I again read another article in the Financial Post national about B.C. scraping rock bottom. I am heartened that we are not following the example of British Columbia, which, although it still spends more in geoscience, every other area seems to be rendering them less and less competitive with our province as a place to invest in mining so that they are dead last on most counts measuring investment attractiveness, and we rank very highly in Canada behind only Ontario, I believe.

Ms. Mihychuk: I see that Desktop Management has ended up costing this branch over $80,000 to implement. It is $82,900 related to increased costs. This would be two geologists. How can the minister justify more expenditures in terms of administration instead of putting that increase into personnel and field work?

Mr. Newman: This is part of the central government decision to implement the Desktop Management Strategy of the government, as you well know. But, as I thought we had discussed previously in relation to another branch, the benefits derived from this desktop strategy do provide geologists with the tools they need to be more effective doing their job over time. So it is a considered investment for the long-term benefit of the services provided by Geological Services.

Ms. Mihychuk: Well, a number of geologists have actually complained to me about the Desktop Management system, and I am wondering if the branch director can indicate if they too have heard similar concerns.

Mr. Newman: In any organization of human beings where there is change that is impacting on people, there is a whole range of emotions and levels of appreciation for the consequences of a change. Sometimes people choose to grumble and share grumbling with people in your position, either doing it to you as someone who is an alumni of the department or someone who is in the official opposition and might influence changes along the way, their emotions and their own opinions direct. So those kinds of things do not surprise me, it is just the same thing happens in people impacted by any change in health care or education or family services, whatever. It happens anywhere.

Having said that, I, as being ultimately responsible for the department, am assured and make sure that there are ample avenues for people to express their views openly and without fear or favour within the departmental processes with the desire of making sure that we have a productive and good team of people working towards the common cause without grumbling but rather with joy and excitement in their jobs. That is why we have business planning processes that include not just management people but representatives of other nonmanagerial parts of the department.

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My best information from participating in that kind of process and being advised by my deputy and director of Geological Services is that the view of the department which they speak for, and therefore on behalf of the employees in that department, is that there is overall a positive attitude towards this implementation that it is after always a bit of agony and an adjustment process being increasingly accepted as a positive tool to enhance their capacities and to make their job more productive and enjoyable.

So if I thought this were more than a grumbling and about an adjustment process in the process of a transition, then I would be concerned about it, but I depend on my deputy and senior management to make sure I do hear about those things if there is an issue. But I am comforted hearing what I have heard from my deputy and director that the problem you allude to or the grumblings you allude to are not representative of the mainstream thinking and attitudes and feelings about the industry.

Ms. Mihychuk: The Estimates book indicates that the budget line for transportation and supplies and services has remained constant. If I am to read that correctly, then the amount of money allocated to send field crews out remains the same. Given that we have an inflation rate and a greater demand by industry and others to send geologists out longer and farther and more often, does this not in effect mean that there has been a cut to the department of Geological Services because both the transportation line and the supplies and services which would allow people to be out in the field longer have remained constant? There has been no provision for an increase for inflationary rates, for an increase in gasoline prices, in the increase for food prices, to send out more supplies for individuals who may be exploring in remote areas, for helicopter support that may be necessary. There has not been any increase, and I look to the minister for an explanation in those two sectors.

Mr. Newman: The departmental staff assure me that they have been able to derive efficiencies through good management who overcome any inflationary pressures. It just shows that being challenged and having creative people, the taxpayers of the province can be beneficiaries, and sometimes that kind of management is inspired by that kind of challenge which has been put to them and more than overcome.

Ms. Mihychuk: Can the minister inform us as to the number of field hours or staff hours that there were last year as compared to this year? He talks about meeting the challenge, and I am wondering what the indication is of how much field work is being presented in this Estimates book as compared to last year.

Mr. Newman: The actual workdays, geologist field days, by way of comparison: '97-98 were 1,157; '98-99, 1,192; '99-2000 projected to be 1,061.

The reduction from last year of 131 is based on the projection of one geologist being on maternity leave, one geologist remaining in the office to complete unfinished projects–a management judgment, of course–one geologist with significantly reduced field season to complete unfinished reports, as well. So those are the field days, but that is also the rationale for the differential.

Ms. Mihychuk: Can the minister indicate the number of vacancies that are in this branch?

Mr. Newman: The lab technician position has been filled.

The industrial mineral geologist staffing request was approved to fill on a permanent basis, and P. Leskiw was appointed on a term basis as the MEAP Endangered Spaces Geologist effective July 20, 1998, Regional Geologist, Thompson, after the resignation on February 26, 1999, of S. Lin. Staffing request approved to fill on a one-year term basis. The bulletin closed on May 28, 1999. Interviews scheduled for June 11, 1999, and those were done.

Chief Geologist bulletin, closed January 22, 1999, is currently on hold.

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Ms. Mihychuk: The minister recently announced a geological position to be focused in the Lynn Lake-Leaf Rapids area to provide support for that traditional mineral belt. We applaud the minister for doing that, but we are concerned that it is too little too late.

The other question is: is this a term position and in reality is the Thompson position that will be moved over to provide that support in this mineral belt that it is not actually a new position or an additional support?

Mr. Newman: This was a filling, the term position, the Lin position that I described. The filling has been done on a term basis, but it has been done on a term basis in order to, while the function is being performed in the area, evaluate the whole service in the northern area with a view to making sure the needs and opportunities are addressed in an informed and appropriate way over time.

Ms. Mihychuk: Can the minister indicate whether he expects a significant turnover in staff in the next year to five years?

Mr. Newman: The department has a significant challenge which has been anticipated and is being prepared for, and that is that 14 out of 31or 45 percent of the geologists are eligible to retire in the next five years. You just wanted to deal with this particular area and not the whole department. Is that correct? [interjection] The answer to your question about what the turnover would be is we anticipate and are preparing for the probability that 14 out of the 31 geologists or 45 percent could retire in the next five years.

Ms. Mihychuk: That is what I anticipated–that we would see a significant turnover. A lot of them sort of are of the same age, and I even lump myself in the group, that we all came into the department, moving through the system and, unbelievably, are looking at retirement. It does give us an opportunity to think ahead though, and what I am trying to lead to is whether there has been any thought given to encouraging native and northern interested individuals into entering geology. To pursue a position in the department would require a minimum of four years university and, given competition, maybe even post-graduate work.

The question would be basically: has the government considered providing an access program for native and northern individuals? This would provide them with the financial assistance and focus on the opportunities in geology and I think could make a significant difference to those individuals, as well as the department which would have the ability to have new people coming in. I think that that would be a benefit for both the individuals and the department.

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Mr. Newman: First of all, the entire department has been challenged by me to have an exemplary employment equity program focusing on the highest-needs population we have in the province, the aboriginal people. As recently as our business planning session, I made that very clear that I was very serious about this and was demanding those kinds of commitments from the deputy right through management and right down to the employees. This would be part of that. That is, the employment equity would be part of the kinds of things that you are suggesting.

Specifically, an access program is not under immediate consideration, but a succession plan is in the process of being developed. They are certainly looking at a mentoring approach, and they are working with the academic institutions that educate geologists and have geologists in their institutions to work collaboratively toward a meeting of this challenge of the department.

Ms. Mihychuk: Can the minister indicate how many aboriginal geologists are being trained right now?

Mr. Newman: I interpret your question to mean how many students of geology there are undergoing post-secondary education in the province who are aboriginal. My understanding from the information that our aboriginal consultant provided was that they thought there were about four throughout the province who were of aboriginal origin who were being educated in geology at this time.

Ms. Mihychuk: Can the minister indicate what he means by educated all over the province? It is my understanding that there is a geology program at the U of M, and there is a physical geography or Quaternary program at the University of Winnipeg. But other than that I am not familiar with other programs. Are there additional programs available in Manitoba?

Mr. Newman: Brandon University has one, and I urge you to, when you are in Brandon, maybe Friday, pay a visit there. I have actually visited their site and met with the head of the department there. They are very proud of their program and very anxious to secure participation of their aboriginal students in particular in the mining industry and in the oil and gas industry. Unfortunately, in some cases, we lose some of these graduates to Alberta if their particular predisposition is to oil and gas.

Actually, I made a trip out there a couple of years ago with the head of our Native Affairs Secretariat with a view to encouraging them to work with us in developing aboriginal graduates in workforce participation in mining in Manitoba.

Ms. Mihychuk: The program in Brandon, is that a B.Sc. program in geology?

Mr. Newman: Yes.

Ms. Mihychuk: Does it also include graduate studies?

Mr. Newman: No.

Ms. Mihychuk: Can the minister indicate how many staff that we have now in Geological Services, including full time but as well as the students that are going to be deployed this summer, are of aboriginal descent?

Mr. Newman: Two permanent clerical staff and three summer geology students.

Ms. Mihychuk: That is a significant difference. Three students that have been hired that are aboriginal is a good sign. Are they going to be deployed into fieldwork?

Mr. Newman: Yes, and this is an example of the refocused effort to involve aboriginal people in this fascinating and rewarding field and potential career. An additional student was hired yesterday as well, so it is four summer students engaged as geologists-to-be, geological systems.

Ms. Mihychuk: Last year I talked about some of the difficulties incurred by prolonged remoteness. I am wondering if the minister has made any progress in terms of being more flexible, allowing family visits, being allowed to have perhaps family members in a base camp. I know that is a possibility in other departments, but it has not been one that has been available or that I am familiar with with Energy and Mines. Has the minister been able to perhaps ease some of the pressures that field staff have to realize every summer?

Mr. Newman: I am advised that there is no policy precluding what you are talking about, but there is no policy setting out a process or a regulated plan for it. Part of that is there has been no request for what you are proposing at this time, but the department is reasonable and accommodative in its approaches to this kind of situation you have described.

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Ms. Mihychuk: I am going to return a little bit to the aboriginal students who are working in geology. Can the minister tell us what regions those students will be deployed to?

Mr. Newman: We do not have that information readily available. We will undertake to provide it to you.

Ms. Mihychuk: One of the ways that recruiting can occur is through aboriginal organizations. Has there been an approach by the department to AMC or MKO encouraging or developing, fostering the interest in geology, particularly with hopefully more developments in aboriginal communities in the mining field?

Mr. Newman: The approach that we have taken is to deal with aboriginal people who are very much experienced in and knowledgeable about and successful in aboriginal recruitment, aboriginal placement and involved in mentoring processes; that is, their specific skills and knowledge of not just those particular aspects but of aboriginal politics and all of the challenges that they play. So it is a direct route to those people who are acknowledged and well known for their expertise and outcomes whom we have gone to.

Ms. Mihychuk: The Saskatchewan government has developed a number of initiatives that focus on the aboriginal community. I know that that government has worked hard in developing a process that included Northern Affairs and Energy and Mines, as the minister is looking at a holistic approach. When I was a trustee, I know that they had developed provincial curriculum in aboriginal languages which far exceeded what we had done here in Manitoba. We had not developed any curriculum in aboriginal languages, and what had been done was done by local school divisions and fairly independent sort of provincial co-ordination.

Can the minister indicate how we are doing compared to Saskatchewan in terms of recruitment and programs for aboriginal young people to participate in the mining and mineral sector?

Mr. Newman: I do not think we would have any data that would show how we are doing relative to Saskatchewan in that respect, but any ideas that are in Saskatchewan I would expect my department's human resource people and senior management to look into, and we should be looking at best practices all across the country.

We are identified with aboriginal human resource development council. I am a champion for that in Manitoba along with my counterpart in Saskatchewan, and we are the only two provincial ministers in the country that are involved in that whole federal-provincial private sector initiative to achieve greater aboriginal participation in the workforce. We actually attempted to get the mining industry directly involved as a private sector employer, and many of the employers that are involved are in resource industries, so that is going to be one major vehicle that we are going to be using in Manitoba to move ahead. It is consistent with our aboriginal education strategy, which is a generational education strategy which we announced in our throne speech. It is consistent with our urban aboriginal strategy and generally our whole focus to achieve measurable improvement, in fact, targeted goals by the year 2025. So it is what is driving, as I have said earlier, all of the areas that I am responsible for.

But some kinds of initiatives which emerge, and they are far better if they emerge not by importing something from somewhere else but emerge right from the grassroots in Manitoba and particularly when they are led by aboriginals. Along that line Alan Paupanekis, Cross Lake, is a person who is very experienced personally in working in the mining industry and is one of the more knowledgeable and very thoughtful, reasonable, good-faith people at Cross Lake dealing with titanium project, who made a proposal for a 12-day introductory prospecting course. The proposal that he put forward, which was encouraged by us, would, provided we can reach an agreement with him, be delivered at Red Sucker Lake within the next few months, and depending on its success, similar courses may be delivered to other interested First Nations. We are envisaging a more advanced course as a follow up to this introductory course, and various possibilities are being evaluated in that respect. We have another proposal for that, which we are looking at.

Oh, I just got a news bulletin. The contract has been achieved and is now signed and the program will start June 28.

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Ms. Mihychuk: That kind of woke us up, having all that excitement in a field where generally we talk about millions and billions of years–not many news bulletins. The priorities for the Geological Services Branch are, and I read from the Estimates book, encouraging increased levels of exploration in the Superior project or east central region–this is an area that is difficult to access and is basically sort of the initial phases of exploration–developing digital geoscience databases and developing a strategy for the Internet.

Can the minister indicate how many geologists are going to be going into the Superior project, how many will be going into the Thompson, Lynn Lake area and how many will be on the west side of the province in the Flin Flon region? As an addition, I would like to also ask, since we are looking up where the geologists will be deployed, include the Bissett and eastern part of Manitoba because I am sure that is probably in the same data that the department has.

Mr. Newman: The staff years portion between the different areas approximately, southern Manitoba 8.8; southeastern Manitoba .83; Northern Superior Province 4.5; Thompson 4.5; Lynn Lake 1.5; Flin Flon and Snow Lake have 5.2.

Ms. Mihychuk: I want to thank the minister for that information. I know that there are different factors that the southern geologists also include geologists that deal with quarry minerals, for example, and aggregates. There are a number of projects that are being conducted in the southern region.

Can the minister indicate if the department is participating in the analysis of the effects of Lake Winnipeg water levels? There has been a commission or a board established by the minister to review shoreline erosion. This is an issue that I am sure that the minister has heard about, just as I have, and there has been numerous lobbying groups that are urging government to reconsider their position on lake levels in Lake Winnipeg. My limited knowledge of hydrology indicates that erosion is a very complicated factor dealing with a number of different variables.

I am wondering if any of the geological staff are participating in that project.

Mr. Newman: Indirectly, there was an involvement, but not in the advisory group of the work that was done in collaboration with the Geological Survey of Canada by our department and Manitoba Hydro examining the whole issue of glacial tilt. It turned out to be resource material that was brought to the attention of what turned out to be or emerged as an advisory group. I know in the evolution towards the formation of the advisory group that that research was made available, and I think they brought in someone from the Geological Survey of Canada to explain it to interested stakeholders. But other than that, the involvement of the department as a resource to that advisory group is through my deputy minister and the Deputy Minister of Natural Resources, as well as Manitoba Hydro.

Ms. Mihychuk: Is it the opinion of the department of Geological Services that shoreline erosion is primarily the result of high lake levels as being sort of asserted by certain shoreline groups? Has there been some study or assessment of their argument geologically, and has that been provided to the advisory group?

Mr. Newman: I should never have said that I take a holistic approach, because now I am getting into Hydro–and my hat, Hydro. The advisory group is really education oriented, solution oriented, in terms of devising ways and means to cope with the inevitability of erosion. It has other specific functions which in its terms of reference involve some very specific things that are going to require the engagement of experts through a request-for-proposals approach, and that is in their hands to make the selection. But the committee, the advisory group, is not mandated to examine the relative effect, positive or negative, of the levels of water in the lake and the impact on erosion. There are several reasons for that. One is that there is a case before the courts that is dealing with that situation, and that is the kind of forum which should appropriately deal with that kind of difference of opinion of experts.

Certainly the position that has been taken by Hydro publicly is that the expertise says, no, it does not. If anything, it is a positive influence.

Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. The hour being 6 p.m., committee rise.